Questions about Scale/Eaglemoss-Wixiban in-scale starship sizes

[Sutehp]

Ok, so a few months ago, after seeing Eaglemoss’ in-scale canon pictures of most of Star Trek’s starships, I decided to take it upon myself to make a fanmade work of determining every starship’s Scale as according to its length and/or size/mass/volume. I was about to publish the article over at Continuing Mission just a few days from now when I found out two things: 1) Wixiban/Eaglemoss just put out updated images of their starship size pictures with additional ships from Discovery, STO and ST: Picard and 2) the Klingon Corebook states the Maquis Raider (canon length 68.5 meters) is Scale 2 instead of Scale 3 as I originally thought.

With the addition of the new ships, I have to rewrite the article to include them. That’s not an unfortunate situation; having more ships to detail my article is what I call a “good problem.” But as far as I am aware, the only two Scale 2 ships I have seen published stats for are the Danube-class runabout and the Maquis Raider (and I only became aware that the Raider is Scale 2 just a day ago).

I’m trying to determine just exactly what length separates Scale 2 from Scale 3. The difference between Scale 1 and Scale 2 is apparently about 20 meters since the runabout is 23 meters long and is the smallest Scale 2 ship I have official stats for. I originally thought that 40 meters was the border between Scale 2 and Scale 3 before I found out about the Maquis Raider being Scale 2 at 68 meters. So now I’m thinking that the border between Scale 2 and Scale 3 is closer to 100 meters given that the largest Scale 2 ship I know of is 68.5 meters and the smallest Scale 3 ship I know of (the Daedalus-class) is 140 meters.

Are there published stats for any other Scale 2 ships in any of the STA books that I can use as a better base of comparison?

Are there other factors besides size that Modiphius uses to determine Scale for starships/starbases/space stations? (I’m still having trouble reconciling DS9 being officially Scale 12 when it’s dwarfed by both a Scale 13 Borg Cube and the Scale 12 “Doomsday Machine” Planet Killer, see here.)

At which particular Scale should the Colossal trait apply?

What are your thoughts, everyone?

[Shran]

For me, Scale 1 is a small shuttle and Scale 2 is a large shuttle or runabout or an attack fighter. Scale 3 is the beginning of starships. The Maquis raider could both fit Scale 2 or 3. But at Scale 2 it should not be a Small Craft.

I feel like >100 meters and approximately 50 crew makes a Scale 3 ship.

Regarding DS9, from size comparisons, it looks a little bigger than the romulan Warbird which is Scale 6. This would make it maybe Scale 7. However, it seems that space stations gain a “free” amount of Scale. For example, the Command Division book gives a “small deep space outpost” with a Scale of 8. So space stations seem to use a different Scale scale.

[mattcapiche]

I’d assume scale must have more to it than just pure size. From a mechanical point of view, I think upping the scale on stations is a much easier way of getting their stats where they need to be than another method would be.

Equally I think Colossal shouldn’t be tied directly to scale. I guess it could be a prerequisite, but not an auto apply

[Sutehp]

If Scale is more than just size, I’m hoping that someone can tell us what those other factors are because I sure would like to satisfy my curiosity.

And if space stations have their own rules for Scale, I’d like to know what those are. I don’t think we have nearly enough examples to make an informed basis of comparison.

(As for the D’deridex Warbird, I have my own reasons, which will be spelled out explicitly in my upcoming CM article, for wanting to rate it Scale 7. I know, I know, some might regard this as controversial, but that can’t be helped.)

Ok, back to editing my article. Any other thoughts?

[MisterX]

Scale is, indeed, not only size, but also systems outline and crew compartment. The more systems can be used in parallel (which, in turn, requires more crew), the “bigger” the ship is.

Regarding the scale of DS9, I believe I read something somewhere around about keeping consistency in the amount of docking-ports while not expending a talent. A quick search, however, did not supply me with a link. Maybe @Modiphius-Jim can help.

[Sutehp]

The only official rules I know of concerning station docking are in the Command Division book. But yeah, if space station Scale works differently from starships, I’d love to know that.

I’m making progress on editing the Scale PDFs for the Continuing Mission article: Small Scale is done, Massive Scale is almost done, and I’m starting the Federation Scale edit as I post this. The Alien Scale edit will come after that.

I have a good feeling about this.

[Modiphius-Jim]

I’m sure @Modiphius-Nathan can elucidate on the design philosophies he used.

I’ve always assumed ship and station scales are approximations and estimates and not really meant to be looked at too closely.

[Sutehp]

But even estimates need some basis of comparison, Jim. Without a common yardstick, how would the rules of an RPG even function?

And most of what I’m doing is using the published ship stats in previous STA books to extrapolate at least the Scale stats of ships that haven’t been published yet. STA players have been doing that sort of fan made tweaking since the game began. I’m just trying to do the same thing with the most canon-accurate source we could have ever hoped for.

I’m hoping I’m following in Modiphius’ footsteps as I stumble in the dark.

But if Nathan can add to our discussion, I’m eager to hear what he has to say.

EDIT: I remember during the show (was it in Season 3?), DS9 actually got upgraded significantly. At the start of the show, DS9, being just an abandonded mining station, could barely hold off a single ship in combat. Then, a few seasons later, DS9 was suddenly able to take on a whole fleet of Klingon ships and win. Would such an in-universe change be represented in the STA rules by modifying a space station’s Scale and/or additional refits?

Man, now I really wanna hear what Nathan has to say…

[mattcapiche]

Personally I would assume that the DS9 shift would have been adding the firebase talent, and probably using a refit/milestone to bump the relevant stats.

AFAIK the station could always take a hit (although that ability likely got augmented too), but the big change was in how much of a hit they were able to dish out. Attackers lost because they were losing ship’s rather than not being able to damage the station.

Also interested to hear from Nathan about scale.

[Capt_Harker]

Is there a section to upload PC Character sheets and PC Starship Sheets, like this one?

This Nova Class is connected to Starfleet Intelligence, thus her stats are a little higher. One pet peeve I have with the Nova’s stats in the Core Rulebook: the one system a Nova has more of than anything else is enhanced sensors! This is actually a 12, instead of the 10 given in the core rulebook. This reflects a science vessel’s greatest strength. She may not be the fastest ship in the fleet, or have the most powerful weapons, but a Nova is more sensor-heavy than anything else in Starfleet!

[Sutehp]

Capt-Harker, not that I don’t appreciate the bump, but I’m wondering how your post is relevant to this thread.

[Sutehp]

Concerning my original post about the cutoff between Scale 2 and Scale 3, my original estimate of 100 meters was slightly off as I forgot to take into account the Jem’Hadar Fighter, which is 95 meters long and is rated as Scale 3. I finally found an officially statted ship with the closest length approaching the Jem’Hadar fighter’s length: the Romulan Scout ship (the one seen in TNG’s “The Defector”) has an official length of 89 meters and it is rated as Scale 2 in the Beta Quadrant sourcebook. So it seems the difference between Scale 2 and Scale 3 is 90 meters. Not to mention that the Aerie-class civilian surveyor (like the SS Raven from VOY) is exactly 90 meters and seems to have a great deal more internal space and slightly more mass than a Romulan scout, so my homebrew for the Aerie-class will rate it as Scale 3.

Where can you find the Aerie-class for download, you ask? In a future post. I’m still working on drawing it up, but it should make for a nice civilian starship for non-Starfleet characters or even as a Starfleet ship for a small number of characters on a long-range mission. Stay tuned.

[JohnDW]

you could take a logarithmic approach similar to how they changed warp speeds.
Scale 1 is 1-9 meters
Scale 2 is 10-99 meters
Scale 3 is 100-999 meters
Scale 4 is 1000 to 9999 meters
Scale 5 is 10000 to 99999 meters
Of course… this might throw a few things off

[Sutehp]

Yeah, I’m not going to be doing that.

[Sutehp]

I’m working on the Niagara-class fast cruiser now. Fortunately, I have access to the Star Trek Shipyards: Starfleet Ships 2294-The Future book by Eaglemoss that has information on the Niagara class, as well as the information on Memory Beta to help me out with this write-up. I should have the Niagara ready in a day or so. I’ll make it available for download soon.

[JohnDW]

I think… size might be the wrong way to try and classify “ship scale” but rather… the amount of energy/power that the engines produce to feed into the weapons/shields/propulsion systems is a better way to scale ships, since the “ship scale” kinda changes how much damage the ships can deal to eachother, it would make more sense to base ship scale on how much power they generate/use. Of course… that is much more speculative and more difficult to find, or even estimate, than the physical size of the ships.
For instance, it could be possible to have one ship that is twice as big as another, but still use the same amount of power because it might have a lot of lower power use, lower tech systems, etc.

[Sutehp]

JohnDW, my question is: how does your logarithmic system work to determine a ship’s Scale, if it works at all? Or are you just spitballing/speculating here and asking for help fleshing out your system? (Which is fine if you are, because that’s what this forum is for, after all.)

But if you need a system to determine Scale, then you’re in luck. I forgot to post a link to my Scale system in this thread (I also have it linked in a different thread on this forum, but here’s another link). The current PDFs have the Scale 2-to-Scale 3 measurements slightly off as this is a bit of an ongoing project and I’m adjusting my stats as more published ships’ stats come out.

The current PDFs are still useable, just keep in mind that Scale 2 ends and Scale 3 begins at 90 meters (instead of 100 meters) and Scale 4 ends and Scale 5 begins at 420 meters (instead of 400 meters). I’ll try to have Mephit James update these PDFs in a few days, hopefully.

John, I didn’t realize that you might not have known about my Scale system; I kept thinking that the Continuing Mission article explaining it was linked in this thread’s opening post when it actually wasn’t. (The original Modiphius forum post pointing the way to my Scale system is here.) But if you need a working system to determine a starship’s Scale, then use mine.

[Sirok]

Maybe not just a length factor - maybe it’s volume or H×L×W

[Sutehp]

Exactly right, Sirok. It’s not just length, but overall mass of a starship in comparison with similarly sized ships is also taken into account in my system. Using those Eaglemoss pictures with their canon starship lengths, I devised a system of determining Scale not just from length alone, but from overall size/mass. Length is just the initial factor in determining Scale to give me a ballpark figure. I take overall size in addition to length to help me get a more complete picture of its Scale. If two ships have the same length but one is significantly more massive or wider or has more volume than the other, the larger ship could very well have a larger Scale than the smaller ship.

I address this in my system. Feel free to have a look.

[betatester]

My 2 cents

• 1: shuttles
• 2: long range shuttle, ,luxurious shuttles,
• 3: military scout ship, civilian local trader ship, pirate vessel (in a fleet)
• 4: small warship, pirate vessel lead ship, big trader ship
  5 or higher ship need governmental backup for purchasing or maintenance
• 5 warship, pirate ship flag ship (stolen or Orion Syndicate)
• 6 top notch war ship
  The scale is not directly related to dimensions but to how much damage it can handle or deal and to how many crew there’s in and how much combat actions it can do in a turn, most of the time it’s related to dimensions but you can have some latitude to have a scale 4 ship as big as scale 5 ship because it’s bulky or a bit outdated or a scale 6 ship as small as a scale 5 ship because it’s heavily automated.
  Of course Starfleet call their warships exploration ships, and they battle with exploration ships, even if they have quantum torpedoes it’s to deal with subspace anomalies.
  The scale is for combat handling, use traits for dimensions