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Questions about Scale/Eaglemoss-Wixiban in-scale starship sizes

Ok, so a few months ago, after seeing Eaglemoss’ in-scale canon pictures of most of Star Trek’s starships, I decided to take it upon myself to make a fanmade work of determining every starship’s Scale as according to its length and/or size/mass/volume. I was about to publish the article over at Continuing Mission just a few days from now when I found out two things: 1) Wixiban/Eaglemoss just put out updated images of their starship size pictures with additional ships from Discovery, STO and ST: Picard and 2) the Klingon Corebook states the Maquis Raider (canon length 68.5 meters) is Scale 2 instead of Scale 3 as I originally thought.

With the addition of the new ships, I have to rewrite the article to include them. That’s not an unfortunate situation; having more ships to detail my article is what I call a “good problem.” But as far as I am aware, the only two Scale 2 ships I have seen published stats for are the Danube-class runabout and the Maquis Raider (and I only became aware that the Raider is Scale 2 just a day ago).

I’m trying to determine just exactly what length separates Scale 2 from Scale 3. The difference between Scale 1 and Scale 2 is apparently about 20 meters since the runabout is 23 meters long and is the smallest Scale 2 ship I have official stats for. I originally thought that 40 meters was the border between Scale 2 and Scale 3 before I found out about the Maquis Raider being Scale 2 at 68 meters. So now I’m thinking that the border between Scale 2 and Scale 3 is closer to 100 meters given that the largest Scale 2 ship I know of is 68.5 meters and the smallest Scale 3 ship I know of (the Daedalus-class) is 140 meters.

Are there published stats for any other Scale 2 ships in any of the STA books that I can use as a better base of comparison?

Are there other factors besides size that Modiphius uses to determine Scale for starships/starbases/space stations? (I’m still having trouble reconciling DS9 being officially Scale 12 when it’s dwarfed by both a Scale 13 Borg Cube and the Scale 12 “Doomsday Machine” Planet Killer, see here.)

At which particular Scale should the Colossal trait apply?

What are your thoughts, everyone?

For me, Scale 1 is a small shuttle and Scale 2 is a large shuttle or runabout or an attack fighter. Scale 3 is the beginning of starships. The Maquis raider could both fit Scale 2 or 3. But at Scale 2 it should not be a Small Craft.

I feel like >100 meters and approximately 50 crew makes a Scale 3 ship.

Regarding DS9, from size comparisons, it looks a little bigger than the romulan Warbird which is Scale 6. This would make it maybe Scale 7. However, it seems that space stations gain a “free” amount of Scale. For example, the Command Division book gives a “small deep space outpost” with a Scale of 8. So space stations seem to use a different Scale scale.

I’d assume scale must have more to it than just pure size. From a mechanical point of view, I think upping the scale on stations is a much easier way of getting their stats where they need to be than another method would be.

Equally I think Colossal shouldn’t be tied directly to scale. I guess it could be a prerequisite, but not an auto apply

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If Scale is more than just size, I’m hoping that someone can tell us what those other factors are because I sure would like to satisfy my curiosity.

And if space stations have their own rules for Scale, I’d like to know what those are. I don’t think we have nearly enough examples to make an informed basis of comparison.

(As for the D’deridex Warbird, I have my own reasons, which will be spelled out explicitly in my upcoming CM article, for wanting to rate it Scale 7. I know, I know, some might regard this as controversial, but that can’t be helped.)

Ok, back to editing my article. Any other thoughts?

Scale is, indeed, not only size, but also systems outline and crew compartment. The more systems can be used in parallel (which, in turn, requires more crew), the “bigger” the ship is.

Regarding the scale of DS9, I believe I read something somewhere around about keeping consistency in the amount of docking-ports while not expending a talent. A quick search, however, did not supply me with a link. Maybe @Modiphius-Jim can help. :slight_smile:

The only official rules I know of concerning station docking are in the Command Division book. But yeah, if space station Scale works differently from starships, I’d love to know that.

I’m making progress on editing the Scale PDFs for the Continuing Mission article: Small Scale is done, Massive Scale is almost done, and I’m starting the Federation Scale edit as I post this. The Alien Scale edit will come after that.

I have a good feeling about this. :innocent:

I’m sure @Modiphius-Nathan can elucidate on the design philosophies he used.

I’ve always assumed ship and station scales are approximations and estimates and not really meant to be looked at too closely.

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But even estimates need some basis of comparison, Jim. Without a common yardstick, how would the rules of an RPG even function?

And most of what I’m doing is using the published ship stats in previous STA books to extrapolate at least the Scale stats of ships that haven’t been published yet. STA players have been doing that sort of fan made tweaking since the game began. I’m just trying to do the same thing with the most canon-accurate source we could have ever hoped for.

I’m hoping I’m following in Modiphius’ footsteps as I stumble in the dark. :sunglasses:

But if Nathan can add to our discussion, I’m eager to hear what he has to say.

EDIT: I remember during the show (was it in Season 3?), DS9 actually got upgraded significantly. At the start of the show, DS9, being just an abandonded mining station, could barely hold off a single ship in combat. Then, a few seasons later, DS9 was suddenly able to take on a whole fleet of Klingon ships and win. Would such an in-universe change be represented in the STA rules by modifying a space station’s Scale and/or additional refits?

Man, now I really wanna hear what Nathan has to say…

Personally I would assume that the DS9 shift would have been adding the firebase talent, and probably using a refit/milestone to bump the relevant stats.

AFAIK the station could always take a hit (although that ability likely got augmented too), but the big change was in how much of a hit they were able to dish out. Attackers lost because they were losing ship’s rather than not being able to damage the station.

Also interested to hear from Nathan about scale.