Questions about Scale/Eaglemoss-Wixiban in-scale starship sizes

This sentence should be copied into the Core Rules, full stop.

A fully autonomous warship, consisting only of propulsion and weapons technology and of the size of a Nova class Starship (traits: densely packed systems, no physical access for humanoids) could be scale 5 – while a long-range cargo super-ship measured in kilometers (and thus dwarfing even Sovereign class ships; traits: harmless giant, civilian ship) could still be scale 3.

Size can be used to estimate – but roughly. There are edge-cases, don’t be afraid to judge loosely. STA is a narrative system (GNS model) system, after all.

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just realized that I have to change size to scale

And I just realised that I didn’t even notice this mistake, because it was so crystal clear what you meant. :slight_smile: :rofl:

Larger Scale vessels are more combat capable than smaller Scale vessels, but that doesn’t mean that a ship’s combat ability is what determines Scale.

If Scale is determined by combat ability, then why is a 170 meter long Defiant (a dedicated warship) only Scale 3 compared to a 289 meter long Constitution (a multirole exploratory vessel) that is Scale 4? In a one-on-one fight, the Constitution would trounce the Defiant, despite the smaller ship being a dedicated warship.

“A fully autonomous warship, consisting only of propulsion and weapons technology and of the size of a Nova class Starship (traits: densely packed systems, no physical access for humanoids) could be scale 5 – while a long-range cargo super-ship measured in kilometers (and thus dwarfing even Sovereign class ships; traits: harmless giant, civilian ship) could still be scale 3.” --Mister X

Have we seen any published example of that in any of the STA books, Mister X? Your speculation is interesting, but it doesn’t seem to be in accordance with any starship we’ve seen in any of the STA books. Can you give us an example of a small ship with a large Scale that’s in any of the STA books? Or even better, can you cite a large starship with a small Scale? Please cite the book and page number, because I want to know if there’s something I missed.

You’re right about size being a factor (perhaps the largest but not only factor) in determining Scale and that there are other determining factors that influence Scale, but I haven’t seen a single starship that had it’s Scale-by-size overridden by its combat ability. If you know of a Modiphius-published example, I’d like to see it.

Constellation is scale 4 (instead of 3).

Yup, but I mentioned a Constitution class, not a Constellation class and they’re both Scale 4. What was the point you were trying to make?

Rpt: Constellation is scale 4 (instead of 3). :slight_smile:

No one ever said the Constellation was Scale 3. It’s 310 meters long, 21 meters longer than the Constitution class and 5 meters longer than the Constitution Refit class, both of which are Scale 4. How could the Constellation, which is bigger than either of those two ships by size alone, qualify as Scale 3 when its size alone makes it Scale 4? Sure, the Constellation is Scale 4 instead of Scale 3, but it’s also Scale 4 instead of Scale 5.

You still need to explain your reasoning why it could have qualified as Scale 3 when it’s large enough to qualify as Scale 4 by size alone.

I did. In two posts. In this thread. :slight_smile:

Defiant Class (Scale 3): 170 x 134 x 30 m, mass 355,000 t
Nova Class (Scale 3): 165 x 62 x 34 m, mass 127,000 t
NX Class (Scale 3): 225 x 136 x 33 m, mass 280,000 t
Constellation Class (Scale 4) : 231x135x65 m, mass 280,000 t

Defiant and Nova are for reference only; Defiant in scale 3 seems like an odd choice and is probably because the ship is so tightly packed and has such a small crew.

Look especially at the difference between the NX Class and the Constellation class. Yet, maybe, since Miranda Class (230 x 127 x 51, 520,000 t) is also scale 4, Constellation should stay scale 4 and NX class should join it?

Anyway: The point I’m trying to make is that scale is a representation of size, yet size does not only comprise dimensions (especially with the huge nacelles standing out, mass seems the better number, anyway), but also, e.g., number of crew or certain abilities. It is a rough estimate, calculated by rule of thumb, not by strict measurements.

STA is a narrative system, aiming to support, with its rules, narrative play. It is not a simulationist approach (I refer to the GNS model, here). Thus, players are even encouraged to use quick estimates and (while they may do so, if they choose) not necessarily need to calculate any small detail.

Dimensions are Length x Beam x Height, source for all numbers is is ditl.org

Oh gawds, you’re using the dimensions from the Daystrom Institute Technical Library? No wonder your numbers were so off! The poor sods at Daystrom think that the Centaur class is 381 meters long when it’s only 210 meters! Also, the Constellation is 310 meters long, not 230. And those aren’t the only errors on that website, I’m sure. Their numbers are way obsolete.

Yeah, those DITL guys couldn’t tell you the difference between a quantum filament and a cosmic string. (See what I did there?) :rofl:

If you want a canon source for actual starship lengths, you’re much better off going to Wixiban and seeing all the image files there. Virtually every starship ever seen in Star Trek is represented in at least one of those jpegs and (aside from one or two typos in the TNG jpeg), all of their canon lengths are stated and they can be viewed in comparison to each other. Eaglemoss made a number of interviews with the prop makers and model builders and generally did as much research as they could to get their measurements right. These are the guys who published all those monthly magazines for the Offical Starships Collection.

Have a look at them and feel free to download all of the jpegs, theyre high-quality and high resolution and since they’re licensed by CBS/Paramount, they’re completely canon. My Scale system is derived directly from these jpegs.

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Minor note–just because something is licensed and approved by CBS, doesn’t make it canon. Canon’s what you see on the screen. Everything else from books to games to pictures, etc. all not canon.

That being said, I’m sure some people have studied screencaps at length to find any on-screen (canon) references to ship lengths.

The only time I can remember any character directly mentioning a starship length/size on a Star Trek episode was the Star Trek Enterprise episode “Regeneration” when that Earth scientist said that the Borg debris had a curvature that would have measured 600 meters in diameter when it was intact (but of course she didn’t say the word “Borg”). The funny thing was, she got the size of the Borg Sphere exactly right!

Unlikely, actually. The Defiant class is far more powerful than the Constitution class. The reason Defiant scale isn’t higher to reflect its combat capability is: it doesn’t need to be.

Also a small combat vessel suffers from its compact nature. Once you penetrate Defiant’s shields and armor, every shot is likely to hit something important. There just isn’t much wasted space.

DS9 isn’t actually very big, but there is a LOT of unimportant space.

However, at the end of the day you’re looking for an objective answer to a subjective question. There is no hard and fast rule, which is why examples of ship types were given rather than actual ship dimensions.

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DS9 has a diameter of 1,452 meters. Yes, it has a lot of empty space between its rings, but the thing dwarfs a Galaxy class (see here). DS9 is pretty damn big compared to most, if not all, Starfleet vessels if it’s significantly bigger than a Galaxy. Not to mention that its official stats say it has a Scale of 12 when the largest playable starships officially statted by Modiphius are only Scale 6. That’s a significant size gap. Then again, space station Scales work differently from starship Scales, but DS9 is not small by any means.

I’m admittedly not very well-versed in the STA starship combat rules, so if anyone has gamed out a scenario where a smaller Scale starship has defeated a larger Scale ship, I’d like to hear the details. Granted, the difference between a Scale 3 and a Scale 4 starship combat is not all that great, but wouldn’t the bigger scale ship have the advantage by default?

I read somewhere in this forums that this is actually because of the docking-rules.

Just so, but I acknowledged in my next sentence that space station Scale rules work differently from starship Scale rules. Even so, DS9 still has a diameter of 1,452 meters. What did you mean by DS9 being “not actually very big?” As compared to what?

Coincidentally, I just found the thread were I read this. It’s this one.

As for searching for models to the proper scale for the game table, have a look at this: Eaglemoss has come out with new XL scale Starships. Here is a Nova Class Starship, right next to a Danube Class runabout (made by Micromachines, which I normally use in-game.) As you can see, both ships, the Eaglemoss and the Micromachines, are to scale with each other. I can’t wait to put them both on the game table!