Sabbat Speculations

Which was proceeded by this quote

“Convictions: human values they attempt to uphold even after death.” thus again supporting Humanity being just that.

As for playing an Elder sure go ahead it’s your game but the game was designed to cut out Elders as playable thus the dwindling number of them and the “call”, and no outlying rules on how to make them.

As someone once told me just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should especially if it goes against the spirit to which the game was designed for.

But again You do you, it’s your game.

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Not going to argue, as I am not trying to change your mind. We just disagree and that is OK by me.

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So I wanted to share the beliefs that I used for a Lasombra SPC of mine.

Convictions-

  1. Do not tolerate failure — including your own. Punish it visibly and harshly.
    -Touchstone: Sister Marry Margret a nun at the local catholic school. who is a sharp with her indignation as when is with her ruler. Ignacio loves to watch her discipline her students when they fail in grasping the strict nature of scripture. Sin to her is in every child and it must be beaten out of them, “Spare the rod and spoil the child” Ignacio sees that even this mortal concept is mirrored in his own beliefs.

  2. Strive for control by any means. Dominate the world around you and bend it to your will.
    -Touchstone. John Bennet the CEO of Ion Technologies on 75th street in down town. John didn’t grow up in the corprate world but on the streets in Southern chicago. Growing up on the streets did teach him one thing though and it was that that drove him forward and continues to this day “do onto others before they can do on to you.” Ignacio saw John growing up on the streets aroudn his congragacian and feel in love with Johns ruthlesness and cuning. Watching him grow it may have been ignacio that may have given John the Idea to go to night school and lift himself up out of the neighborhood and has watched him climb over person after person to get were he is at today.

  3. Show respect to those in authority, but replace them when they falter.
    -Touchstone: Garry Fulmirson a simple construction worker that spend most of his time with his wife and kids when he is not at work. most people that would have talked with Ignacio would never supspect that ignacio secretly watches Mr. Fulmirson at work. A lowly construction worker working the night crews on the many busy chicago highways, but Gary has a dark secret. Gary is s real follower but he also doesn’t like what he terms “educated idiots” and one of Gary’s bosses was just that until he meet with and unfortunate accedent on the jobsite. He accedently fell over the barrior into the path of an oncoming semi. Gary told his new boss that he had tried to reach for him as he felll but their was nothing he could do. The semi drug him for 500 yards before they could get it to stop. Ignacio wait s for the day Gary will snap again but if he has to wait any longer he may just have ot intervein to see it happen.

So basically if you want to, you can just take any of the ethics form one of the old V20 paths and use them as convictions while you folow the beilief system of the path itself. Color your RP with beilifs. in the example above the PCs got in a discussion with Ignacio on his beilifs on the beast and Ignacio basically feed them the Path of power and the inner voice though he did not call it that and how this veiwpoint keep him from falling to his beast.

Paths even humanity in the old system, IMO, had a single sole purpose to keep the vampire from wasail. In V5 convictions keep you from gaining stains which degrade your humanity until you wasail. If you want to have beiliefs that alliagn to an old path then you just select Convictions that allaign with that path and then they will help keep you from Wasail. This is why I beleave we don’t need paths. Because in the base system given to us in the book you can literally have any belief you want to have to keep you from Wasail. Much more than what the old paths/humanity system allowed, thats for certain. I hope they remove paths from the game all together.

The reason I don’t want to argue or try and change anyones mind or for that matter have my own mind changed on this is because I like being able to have literally any belief for my vampires both present and future and don’t ever want to go back to only having 13 or so belief systems. It’s just too narrow a viewpoint for the game I wish to play and I feel that boiling beliefs down to a handful of moralities is completely unnecessary.

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If were going to pull from the book, King, then I have to kaibosh your argument. Quoted directly from the core rulebook, page 172, “Convictions” paragraph 2, first line (emphasis mine to clarify your fallacy):

“The specifics of these Convictions are up to the player. They might reflect a religious code, a personal ethical core, a vampiric path, or just things the character does or balks at doing without ever really considering their philosophical weight.”

You can, at best, argue that it doesn’t specifically mention “Path of Enlightenment,” but I think that’s a very weak argument, as most refer to them as “paths” for ease and not always “Paths of Enlightenment.” Red is in no way at all doing something against the spirit of the game in his use of ethics of the paths as ideas for convictions, instead, he is very specifically using a suggestion of the game itself.

Jarl I could say your quote is just as much a fallacy as it does clearly state above that it is a Human Value, so at best we can agree that the wording is done in a confusing matter. Especially when you look anywhere else in the book and it heavily expresses Humanity over anything else, but hey lets throw everything else in the book that supports the Humanity centered paradigm out because of one sentence that contradicts the rest of the book… yeah seems legit.

As for the convictions Red shared I say Bravo, but in the end those convictions still hold to a Human Value and in it’s self are not a path Paths are way more ■■■■■■■■■ to be on and stay on given the previous material.

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There is nothing fallacious in using a vampiric path as the basis for a conviciton when the quoted, and bolded text clearly states “a vampiric path.”

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Perhaps you don’t understand Paths, they are more than a code of ethics they are a way of life that removes ones self from humanity shunning it outright by fixating and focusing on a strict way of life that is not humane in any sense of the means.

Yes his Convictions he shared are awesome but they are not a Path if it was then there would be a Path Rating not a Humanity Rating. He moves against these Convictions he loses Humanity because he is on Humanity because this game stresses Humanity as it’s moral Center.

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I’ve been Storytelling since 1992, have run a 100+ player LARP keyed specifically around a Sabbat held city for over 10 years.

I think I have a pretty good handle on Paths, King. I think you’re a little too focused on the box and not on the contents on this one. Story trumps rules in this setting, the challenge of battling the beast is the intention of the humanity mechanic at its core.

Whether that battle is trying to be a saint or merely denying the beast, is up to the player to tell. The Convictions listed in the book are not those of the “Path of Humanity” any than they are the various other Paths of Enlightenment.

Some specific Convictions suggested that are not listed under the Path of Humanity (per the 20th anniversary core rulebook, page 311, paragraph 2, line 1 the proper term for “Humanity” is the Path of Humanity):

Kill only the unworthy/unbelievers/in fair combat (from multiple Paths like Honorable Accord, Caine and Blood)
Disobedience is Dishonor (Road of Kings/Path of Power and the Inner Voice)
Courage is the highest Virtue (Path of Honorable Accord)
None may control me (Path of Night)
Always keep your sworn word (Path of Honorable Accord)

I am not saying that the way you are playing it is wrong, King, what I’m saying is that the rules allow for more interpretations than your own.

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I get what your saying Jarl, now that being said yes it is not Humanity as we once knew it. They are establishing a new interpretation of humanity. Again now that being said you can wrap your convictions in any wrapper you want but at the end of the day given the new system you are on Humanity whether you like it or not.

Yes your Convictions adhere to the ideals of of a path but they are not truly on that path as they do not exsist. In the end your viewed as a human and depending on the Path a really F’ed up Human or Distant Human, or maccab human ect. the stress here is your Humanity is effected. You as the St can call it whatever you want but in the end the Mechanic states you do something against your convictions you gain a stain on your Humanity (This iterations concept of it.)

There in lays my argument, you can wrap it in any pretty paper you want but in the end it is all Humanity.

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Not disputing that at all, King, and that’s kind of why I said you were focusing on the box and not the contents.

The nature of the dispute was that the Paths of Enlightenment wouldn’t work with the new morality system. That’s where Red and I came in and said they already do. I think you beautifully showed how exactly that now does work within the rules.

I think it’s really awesome that the new morality system reflects the original intention of the Paths of the Enlightenment. The whole backstory of the them in canon was that a group of Kindred got together in the Black Monastery back in 1666 and worked to find ways to control the Beast that wasn’t tied to the Camarilla’s devotion to maintaining their “human” ways. Together, they came up with a series of methods for containing and controlling it that each reflected their personal views. These became the Paths of Enlightenment, and as time went on they became the basis of the Sabbat morality. Some in the end still fell to wassail, their ideals flawed, but others worked, and held true to the modern age.

The new morality system I think does a better job of tying to this backstory than the old one ever did. At the end of the day, the goal is to prove yourself in control over the beast, and not the other way around. Vampire, at its core, is a game of shackles and chains. Elder to Neonate, Sire to Child, Vampire to Mortal, and Individual to their Beast. The new morality system does a far better job of reflecting that I think than the old one ever did.

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I love the new Humanity system, it is more fluid and allows for more archaic ways of thought like say a Vampire that lived in Eastern Europe during the Ottoman Empire would have a more draconian bent to his humanity something the old Humanity would not account for.

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Exactly, an elegant system that lends itself to whatever narrative the Storyteller is writing, and the players want to play. I love when the core narrative concepts are tied to the mechanics in this way.

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I think what’s causing the confusion is that the definition of “Humanity” has changed. And there are some folks that have that word so ingrained from past editions that it can be difficult to see past what it used to be.

As was already said, there are many different types of humans, ranging from the saintly to the vile.

The old Humanity did not really account for that. You wanted to play someone with questionable morals, you took a hit and had a harder time staving off the Beast.

Paths of Enlightenment came along and fixed that. Giving options to those that didn’t want to walk a saintly path.

But even then, there were not always good matches for some character types. There would almost always be those one or two items that didn’t quite fit. “My character cares about this, but not about that”, etc…

So now it’s all under one umbrella, with the definition of Humanity simply meaning “not the Beast”. With it being up to the player and ST to decide what works for them.

So while yes, it is Humanity focused…the meaning of Humanity has changed.

And for the better, in my opinion.

Edit: In the end, this mechanic has always essentially been a Sanity rating. They just cleaned it up so that the opposing ends of the spectrum could be more easily described using familiar games terms. They could have just as easily changed Beast to “insane” and Humanity to “sane”.

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That’s a really good way to look at it, AlxRaven. The Beast represents the “Renfield” effect on sanity. I played a lot of Call of Cthulhu in my day, and the idea of knowing the supernatural forever separating you from your humanity once your eyes are opened is a strong recurring theme there as well. I have a saying that once you peek behind the curtain and see the workings of the universe that man wasn’t meant to see you can never close your eyes again. It’s a core concept I like to weave into all my games in one way or another. I think narratively its a powerful tool to have the characters realize the horror of their new condition through highlighting what life used to be like before the beast called to them from the dark parts of their soul.

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Funny enough, that’s exactly the game I was thinking of when I made that association. Lol. Never got the chance to play it back in the day, but my friend is an avid fan, so I’m aware of the important parts.

Loss it whatever form (sanity, ethics, people, etc…) is a great thing to put into stories. One of my favorite NPCs I had was a demon at the crossroads. Would literally give you anything, if you were willing to pay the price in the form of a sacrifice. Not in the ceremonial sense, but the literal giving up of something important and valuable to you.

The trick and the fun part was waiting to add him until you really understood the character, so that the price asked was appropriately impactful to that individual. Then sit back and watch them squirm…

My personal goal as a ST is to evoke an emotional response from the player. If I can manage that with at least one, then I’m doing my job right.

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It figures since Hite has stated rather a lot that Call of Cthulhu is the bestest game evah. And VTM acknowledged how it stole Humanity from CoC’s Sanity.

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So, now that we’ve handled the debate on morality (and to a lesser extent the elders. Thank you all for that by the by, interesting stuff, glad to see we could keep it civil even if things got a little heated in places) and discussed the potential new direction for the Sabbat, what do we think we’re going to see from them in future?

From what I understand we’ve two camps:

  • SPC’s they were, SPC’s they shall be again: The new focus on the Anarchs vs the Camarilla will shunt the Sabbat into the background. They’ll become like the Innconu, Edenic Groundskeepers, Tal’rahe’Ma, a malevolent force in the background of chronicles.

Players won’t be able to play Sabbat characters without significant homebrew, whilst certain elements of the sect and its culture (e.g. clans, disciplines, maybe some religious beliefs) will be re-purposed and re-branded into the Cam and the Anarchs, maybe the Independents.

  • The Sword of Caine shall rise again: The Sabbat will undergo a fundamental shift. With the ‘failure’ (depends on who you ask) of the Gehenna Crusades and their widespread decimation at the hands of the SI the Sabbat will evolve into a new, but no less dangerous form.

The freedom loving elements will: die, leave (seeking shelter with the Anarchs or becoming independents), or be excommunicated. The Sabbat will effectively become an entire Sect modelled on the Black Hand as outlined in Caine’s Chosen: The Black Hand. That is to say, it will be an elite, religious sect, focussed on furthering its aims at any cost.

Personally I hope for the latter over the former. If we can’t have the Sabbat of old (which I for one will miss, but I understand its not to everyone’s tastes), then I’d hope we’d still get something, and a reinvigorated Black Hand seems like a good way forward. It makes the Sabbat distinct from the Anarchs, allows the writers to reign in some of the more monstrous elements (as the Black Hand was typically more reserved and subtle), all whilst keeping the rituals, culture, and elements of inhumanity that make the Sabbat an interesting sect.

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As much as I love the Sabbat, I really hope they don’t come back as playable. I really like that they are focusing on the Camarilla and Anarch dynamic it’s giving the Anarchs a chance to shine finally. Too long did that sect in the game fall by the wayside pushed into the darkness by the ever looming Camarilla/Sabbat dynamic (As proven by the multitude of books released around that paradigm and so little books put out involving the Anarchs).

I’d love for the Sect to hang back in obscurity then bring them back 5-6 years down the line but streamlined fixed of the inherent problems within yet still stay in the hands of the Storytellers.

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From what I’ve seen, the backstory in Beckett’s mention a few really important points:

  1. The Week of Nightmares and failure of the Red Star to be “Gehenna” has caused the newer Sabbat (which accounts for most of the Sect) to question their leaders and defect to the Anarchs. Quote: “For perhaps the first time in the Sect’s history, a significant number of Sabbat members question the nature of Gehenna and the Antediluvians. And, more importantly, they question whether the pervasive fear of Gehenna propagated by the Sabbat elders —especially by the Inquisition and the Black Hand — is simply just another way for the old to manipulate the young. More Sabbat have defected to the Anarchs in the last five years than in the previous four centuries.”

  2. Those Sabbat who stayed with the Sect in light of the “failure of Gehenna” went to the Middle East to engage in the Antediluvian Crusade. Quote: “The ones who stay true to the Crusade are the true Cainites, the fanatics, the preachers, the soldiers of blessed Caine. … But to the preachers of Caine this was the beginning of the end. A chance to meet the Antediluvians on the field of battle, in their graves and temples, a holy carnage hidden from mortal sight by the atrocities of the American wars in the Middle East. The Gehenna Crusade starts in earnest with Operation Iraqi Freedom, an undertaking on such a scale that hundreds of U.S. and European Cainites could hide among the troops and civilian contractors. … So far, the Camarilla know little of the Crusade, but when they learn, can they afford not to meet the Cainites as they wage war for the land where Sumer and Enoch once stood? Such a confrontation is still years away when Beckett visits Mexico, and the Fourth Sabbat Civil War may well end with the defeat of the Crusaders.” (It should be noted that the statement “years away” was set during the 20th Anniversary edition - it’s safe to say that with the Elders being called to the Middle East for the “Gehenna War” those years have now passed)

  3. Sandoza’s play to make her “sister,” Lucita, Regent resulted in the fracturing of the Sabbat and the defection of the Lasombra. While this isn’t specifically stated as the reason, with the loss of “Galbraith” and the failure of Vasantesena’s plan to maintain the status quo, the rivalries between the Tzimisce backing Sasha Vykos and the many other Lasombra interested in making plays on the Regency have tipped over into open conflict. The end result of this (whatever outcome they decide happened) was the exodus of the Lasombra to the Camarilla. It could be because Lucita succeeded in her bid for Regent and the bulk of the Lasombra refuse to follow her (or she dismantled the Sabbat from within as revenge against Monçada), or because Lucita’s bid failed and her rival, Sascha Vykos (or one of her sycophants) is now Regent and the Lasombra won’t stand for it. Quote: “Within hours, word of “the Regent’s” assassination spreads to every Sabbat territory in the world, with nearly every Cardinal and most Archbishops descending on Mexico to press their own leadership claims. Reluctantly, Lucita allows herself to be placed among the contenders, with the backing of Vasantasena and Sandoza. The contest for Regent gives her the opportunity to continue the investigation into the murders of both Galbraith and her replacement. What she does not reveal to Beckett is that she is fascinated with the idea of ascending to a higher position within the Sabbat than her sire, and even more so by the possibility of shaping the Sabbat to be the antithesis of Monçada’s dream.”

  4. The winner of the Regency debate is the reason for the current state of the Sabbat. This could be one of few, but most likely, Lucita failed in her bid. Quote: “The Aftermath: Eventually, someone becomes Regent, with that person’s politics shaping the Sect for many years to come. Regent Lucita, the most reluctant of the potential candidates, will probably continue the status quo policies of her predecessor (minus the infernalism) but with greater support for the Inquisition and appropriate respect for the Loyalist views of her patron, Vasantasena. The Sect as a whole will focus more on averting Gehenna by any means necessary. Regent Polonia, would be more conservative, focusing on defeating the Antediluvians, facing them and their greatest servants on the battlefields of the Middle East and the streets of Chicago. If he wins, the Camarilla will be forced to intervene in the madness of mortal war, a theater where Polonia believes them to be at their weakest. Regent Charles Demare, on the other hand, would run the Sabbat as a junta with handpicked allies appointed to run the Black Hand and the Inquisition. While the Sabbat as an institution would be better organized, it would face a constant membership drain as younger, less powerful members (including most of the Panders) defect to the Anarch Movement. Demare’s rival, Dominique Touraine, would probably never accept the title of Regent and would likely abolish much of the Sect’s political structure. In many ways, a Loyalist-Moderate Sabbat would essentially be a more violent Anarch Movement, albeit one more gripped by fears of Gehenna.”

Now, with all that, we can see kind of where the Sabbat sits in V5. The Camarilla, capitalizing on the chaos of the Regent’s assassination, have struck back. The loss of the leadership of Archbishops and Cardinals (combined with the loss of faith and defection of large numbers of younger Sabbat) in the cities they were defending (or assaulting) have led to the failure of most Sabbat fronts, with the assaults (now weakened and leaderless) having failed, and the resulting Camarilla counter attacks striking cities also left crippled and pushing the Sabbat back. This, combined with the effects of the new Regent’s leadership, has accelerated the defection of Sabbat to the Anarchs through survival instinct or even greater disillusionment, swelling the ranks of the Unbound, leaving the remaining Sabbat to be the power-hungry vultures picking the bones of the Sabbat, or the religious fanatics who would rather die for their cause than abandon it to the ages.

This is what I’m excited about. I’m a huge Sabbat fan, I think they have a really interesting dynamic, but I’ve always been dissatisfied with their being cast as a counter faction instead of them remaining The Anarch Revolt. The original Anarch Revolt was specifically the rising of the younger vampires to throw off the yolk of their Elders, which at the time, was the Antediluvians. To that end, the later Anarch Movement was, again, the younger Vampires throwing off the yolk of their Elders… though at this point the Camarilla had obscured the origins and motives of vampires (who is this Caine you’re talking about? You mean that psychopathic green grocer from the bible? LoL!).

I think the best use of the Sabbat now (to pull the idea of “peeking behind the curtain” again) would be to have the Sabbat who want free of their “elder bs” to join the Anarchs, reinvigorating and morphing the Anarchs into a new breed, while you have those vampires who see the machinations of Gehenna “losing their sanity” and joining the fanatical sect of religious zealot elder-killers called the Sabbat. Make the Sabbat book cover the motivations of these two very different groups, the religious zealots mostly as PCs in a Shadow-War Crusade campaign, while serving as nightmarish villains in other campaigns, and the freedom seeking anarchs and how their joining the Anarchs changes the nature of a standard Anarch campaign.

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Very true, Hite did a lot of development with CoC. and at one of the early V5 panels they credited Hite for helping with the system. Sure he wasn’t the sole person working on it but his input would have shaped it.

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