Fallout Friday 10/02/23 - No more scenic bases

Fallout Wasteland Warfare Fallout Miniatures
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So I read Jon’s Fallout Friday post today about the end of scenic bases :disappointed_relieved: :sob:

While I understand the logic he sets out, it’s disappointing. I would happily buy a series of minis which have scenic bases and would also happily buy without. The frustration is when things change halfway, leading to an inconsistent look to my collection. This leads me to my questions:

  1. Will we see the existing range gradually lose their scenic bases, as old stock is sold and new stock is produced? Do I need to buy now to ensure I get the ones I want with the bases I want?

1.5 If the bases are being removed from existing lines, will there be any way to buy them separately?

  1. There is mention of sets of bases being sold separately. Will these be sold to match specific box sets or will they be more of a “generic base set”

2.5 Will such model-specific bases be released as STL files?

  1. Is there any scope to produce sets of both kinds? Some with bases and some without, at two different price tears (this is similar to some of the ESCTA sets which are available in resin with scenic bases and in plastic with flat-top bases.

I’m off now to practice making my own scenic bases from scratch!

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Remember this starts with wave 10, Capitol Wastes is wave 8.

I think it was stated that existing models will continue with bases unless they have to remaster a model.

As stated base sets will be generic. However I suspect they will be themed. No mention of STL. A plus side of this is you will be able to base your entire faction in the same style of base and chose the terrain type.

Most likely all (wave 10 and later) sets will come with flat top bases. It would be a logistics nightmare to have resin minis w/ flat top base AND resin minis w/ resin base in the supply chain. Also unlikely to get resin versions of the plastic minis.

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Here is a rough summary of the basing options for wave 10 onwards:

Sets come with plain plastic bases that you can model and texture with rock/flock.
STL sets can be printed to add scenic details (plants, rocks, skulls, food, chems etc.
There will be new stand alone sets of resin bases in themed groups so your forces can all be on a matching scene (if you look at the Gunners or the Railroad those are probably the closest to this approach as I themed those sets to specific areas)
Or people are free to buy 3rd party resin bases/STLs and use them as they see fit.

We won’t be removing existing resin bases from sets for now as it would mean a lot of retroactive work on older models and 3D printing everything all over again… and we’ve just come through the last round of that.

But if and when sets get replaced by a newer version then they will likely lose the bases. The current set that is in my sights for that is the Survivors Core as that is moving to plastic, where the named NPCs will be removed and replaced with new generic survivor options and the names NPCs will then move into two new boxes (with some new sculpts).

So, Preston, Mama Murphy, Sturges and Shaw are the four minis that are in the queue, but that won’t be for another year or two given production time frames.

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I have to admit that I also find the news disappointing. I am at least somewhat mollified by the fact that seperate bases will at least be available. I just hope there will be enough variety amongst them and the price is not too high.

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The whole situation is just weird to me. I get switching from resin to plastic, but making the multipart sprues seems like it would be using up more plastic than the scenic bases would.

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Think this comes to the difference in materials, plastic and resin use different production methods while also having separate production costs. A plain flat base would also seem a better fit for many poses of multipart kits.

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No, I get that, but my point was if they are looking to cut cost without sacrificing quality, why wouldn’t they make single-mold figures like what they originally had with the starter sets, but with better molds and materials, like CMON and the Song of Ice and Fire miniatures game?

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It has to do with method of production and material cost.

Plastic has a high initial cost bit extremely low material cost and low labor cost.
Raw materials, the HIPS plastic beads, are roughly $1-$2 per kg and available from many manufacturers which makes the supply chain more stable. Injection molding really shines when you need a lot of a product. Molds can last for 50k-100k or more depending on what they are made from.

Resin has low initial cost but materials are expensive and labor intensive. Molds take an hour plus to make and have a usable life of 20-50 castings. If you have to make a new master it can also take a lot of time cleaning up the 3D print prior to use. Casting the minis is far slower than injection molding, taking several minutes to measure and mix resin, pour, demold and prep mold for next casting. In comparison an injection mold machine cam make a sprue (with multiple minis) in under a minute. Resin and silicone RTV for the molds are both in the $25/ kg range. Something you do not see with (most) resin minis is the large gate plug and sprue which is (usually) broken off the smaller product sprue before shipping. There is a lot of waste material that you never see, unlike an injection molded part where you see the entire sprue. There are relatively few producers of good casting resins and RTV which makes it subject to shipping disruptions. The advantage with resin is that adding production capacity is fairly easy and the low initial investment makes it attractive for smaller runs, say 1000-5000 pieces.

I think they chose not to go with figures like CMON is those tend to be PVC which has moderate detail, moderate mold life and they cab get more variety from a HIPS sprue. By the time you make 5 distinct minis and an upgrade sprue even the cheaper individual molds add up to the cost of a full sprue.

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That sounds very much like a sacrifice in quality.

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Its one of the playoffs of what the game is/who the game is for.

This has been a bit of a thing with the game from launch. Is it an RPG/Board game, thus PVC single pose minis are “fine” for a lot of people, or is it a full wargame, in which case things like multipart models with options and swappable load outs is far more typical and expected.

I obviously favour the latter for my wargames (though have no issue with board games too, trust me, I’m a gamer, the format is borderline irrelevant), but some people came in expecting a more board game feel whereas others wanted more wargamey… so I’m always trying to tread the line between the two.

HIPs is only really worth doing if we can get flexible kits out of it. There are a few companies out there (GW…) who can put wargame standard figures in their “board games” (see Underworlds or Warhammer quest for good examples of that) but even then that sometimes frustrates board gamers who want to open and play and may not be experienced with building multipart kits, let alone have the tools.

Kingdom Death is another great example of that. I didn’t back it originally as it was going to be PVC minis which are not my jam, but it morphed into HIPS along the way. For me that was an improvement for “pure” board gamers, not so much.

SOIAF is an interesting one, again its a hybrid board/wargame… I think the nature of rank and flank means you can get away with single pose minis a little more than in a skirmish game where every model is a unique “hero” tier with full customisation.

Ultimately it comes down to how you engage with a game. If the playing pieces are simply tokens (and I don’t mean that with any negative connotations) then anything from a card standee/pog to a full mini does the same job.

If you want a fully visual 3D experience then all the trappings of a wargame, with bespoke figures, terrain etc are needed to sell the dream. The reality for us all lies somewhere along that spectrum (as with all things in life), so you go to the level you need to enjoy your game.

But certainly the sizzle we are trying to sell is “wargame” with distinct minis, 3D terrain etc, ideally all painted even :wink:

For the plastic kits, if we included sculpted bases its at least a whole other frame (for the Power Armor sets, so twice the tooling/shot cost and an accompanying price rise… and no one wants to pay £50+ for three power armor models…) or for the gangs, the removal of all the optional heads, weapons and base add ons, at which point you either need a game like Underworlds with fixed profiles and weapons or else might as well go back to PVC etc.

For some people, PVC (or similar) fixed pose is preferred and that’s totally fine, its just not what we are selling here.

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To follow up on what Jon said, the PVC minis we used in the Skyrim boardgame are some of the best PVC I have ever seen, but they are still not as detailed as we would want from HIPS or resin. They use a process pretty much identical to HIPS, so you also need volume to make them cost efficient. The advantage they have is that they don’t require assembly by the buyer, but several of them are still multipart, they are just assembled at the factory, and we a pay a premium for that. This comes back to the way the metal moulds for HIPS and PVC work compared to the rubber moulds for resin - rubber will bend to allow parts of the figure to be embedded and removed. You can’t bend a steel mould (well, you can’t bend it twice, I guess).

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ideally all painted even :wink:

Now that’s just crazy talk… :laughing:

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