Saucer Separation and Supporting Small Craft

Star Trek Adventures
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In TNG, only a fraction of the 1,000 personnel of the USS Enterprise is shown on screen. And I am quite sure that we do not see everybode of the Voyager crew (haven’t counted), even despite the crew was reduced to minimum capabilities early-on. Thus, I would reason that we see Tom Paris flying shuttles because “racing pilot” is one of his character traits that shall be shown in the series rather than because there is not enough personnel aboard the ship.

The more I think about the rules on Saucer Separation set up in the Core Rulebook, the more I like them: Apart from the fact that the rules would technically seem to allow to duplicate a Captain’s Yacht out of mid-air (I think everybody here agreed that this is to be ruled out by common sense) there are two legit interpretations on the rules, depending on your approach to “realism”:

First, you could reason that every section of the ship is a full functioning entity, operating entirely independent, but each on a smaller scale than the whole ship, unseparated. This is the approach I would favor, since there are enough NPC (in case of a Galaxy Class: about 1,0000; in case of a Nebula Class: about 750; in case of a Prometheus Class: 170 [Memory Beta]) to man the stations needed.

Second, you could also validly reason that, since capabilities are divided, they should, on each section, not exceed the maximum of the whole ship. You would need some sort of house-rule (again, argument would be common sense) to come to this conclusion, but I do not see any interferences with other rules etc.

So, basically, the rules are open for both point of views on “reality” or “plausibility”. It is up to the group, what aspect of ‘realism’ they want to emphasise.

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So I have no opinion on the separation rules but maybe can help with the saucer torpedo launcher. According to TNG Tech Manual the Galaxy-class saucer has a single reward firing photorp launcher that is only exposed when the two vehicles separate. Here’s the reference:

“With the Battle Section no longer occupying the docking cavity, the single aft-firing torpedo launcher in the Saucer Module is open to space.”

Sternbach, Rick; Okuda, Michael. Star Trek: The Next Generation: Technical Manual (Kindle Locations 3198-3199). Simon & Schuster, Inc… Kindle Edition. That’s on page 130 of the print edition

Here’s the graphic from page 128
image

I know it’s not canon anymore but it’s the best reference to the Galaxy-class we’ve every gotten and it holds together pretty well-ish.

v/r
feld

P.S. Sternbach and Okuda really did think of lots of stuff. For example: the antimatter for the saucer launcher in separated flight mode comes from a small antimatter store that they keep in the saucer for it and also to “afterburn” the impulse engines.
“Emergency flight rules allow for the injection of minute amounts of antimatter into the impulse reaction chamber in the event that short periods of overthrust or increased power generation are required. The main impulse engine is supplied by the Battle Section’s antimatter storage facility on Decks 41 and 42. The Saucer Module impulse engines are supplied by two dedicated antimatter storage pods on Deck 10. There is no transfer capability of antimatter between the two vehicles (See: 5.4).”

Sternbach, Rick; Okuda, Michael. Star Trek: The Next Generation: Technical Manual (Kindle Locations 1879-1883). Simon & Schuster, Inc… Kindle Edition. Pg. 76 in print.

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With respect, they are British. If you do not have experience reading “British” as opposed to the way Americans write rules, it does leave us 'Mericans scratching our heads.

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But - remember, under a general alert (Red Alert) the entire crew turns out to their “Red Alert stations”. Effectively, the entire crew has a number of places they have to be at any one time or another. In the Navy the inclusive document governing this is called the “Watch, Quarter and Station Bill”. It lists all possible conditions or states of readiness for the ship and delineated where each and every person on the ship needs to be for a particular state or condition. A similar document would be in effect for our starships, but this minutia is never mentioned. So, a helmsman might be required to be at the shuttle bay during “Red Alert” but at his normal duty station during “Normal Cruising”. Another helmsman, might have the duty station of “Helm, Main Bridge” for “Red Alert” and command the Damage Control party for “Brace for Impact or Collision”.

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Aye. The navy I served in also assigned ‘roles’ to every personnel aboard in case of certain specified ‘maneuvers’ that a general alert / call to combat stations was one of. But as long as the crew mans stations for full operational capacity of the ship for more than one single shift, there necessarily is more personnel than needed at a time. The ‘surplus’ would be used as reserve for wounded or killed, fire-fighting etc.

Or, in case of saucer separating craft, manning the separated entities. :wink:

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For TOS, the positions of “Helm” and “Navigator” were separate. For TNG era ships, the Helmsman handles “Navigation”, say “Astrogation”. The other people on the bridge are the Operations Officer (Data on TNG, Harry Kim on VOYAGER), other Ops folks are the Tactical/Weapons/Security Officer (Tuvok on VOYAGER, Chekov in the TOS movies, Yar/Worf in TNG), Engineering (Lt. Commander Scott on TOS, Geordi LaForge TNG (He spent a lot of his time off the bridge in Engineering Main Control, as did Mr. Scott, Trip on ENTERPRISE was never on the bridge, IIRC) In TOS, the Science Officer was Spock, who was always on the Bridge; in DS9 Jadzia Dax was in Main Control, but on the DEFIANT she served as a combined position of Weapons.Science and Helm as best as I can recall - O’Brien was the Engineering allegory for DEFIANT and Ops in Main Control on the station. So the positions can be somewhat fluid, depending on the needs of the scene. But as for Command Division positions - yeah they are few and far between. It is a small point of contention I have with the way the rules work. I think it is much more likely that officers in Ops/Engineering/Tactical/Science would seek to become a ship commander and transfer to Command. Kirk was in Security before he rose to command. Janeway was in Science. It is less clear in canon for Picard, Archer or Sisko.

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I agree. Now I never saw a vessel with “Extra” personnel, and I cannot imagine there were extra folks on a starship. They would have been assigned to specific stations for duties - so I think of saucer separation as one of those things where our mythical helmsman would move from the Shuttle Bay to take over for the Helmsman relieved to go to the battle bridge on a Galaxy, or report to the secondary control of the main section in case the battle bridge was hit and taken out. The game specifically states that personnel moving to another station elsewhere on the ship require no time to get there. remember, we are modelling a TV show starship, so the scene changes and folks toddle on and off the set as needed.

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I may be nitpicking here, but the INTREPID class, cannot separate its saucer.

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Nor did I or do I, respectively.

But it is simple math that you have some crew-members that you can allocate to different roles when you run more than one full shift/watch. The point is that we run in circles without having precise numbers of a) crew and b) stations. Without it, we can validly argue for every position without any possibility to be proven wrong. Which is, in fact, describes a very pointless discussion.

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Our game has 2 GM’s. One is ex-Navy and has us create a WQ&S Bill for our characters. (Watch Quarter and Station Bill, for you non-Navy types it is a document telling everyone on the ship where they are to be at any given moment of the day, and under every “condition”. The other laughs at this and takes a much more fluid style assuming there are adequate personnel for every job,

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For my two cents as a GM:
If my crew states, that both section will be fully manned (including a flight controller for both sections) I’d give the the extra shuttle capacity. It would be possible (fluff-wise) since calling for saucer-separation is not a maneuver for day to day operation and would call all crew to stations, including off-duty rotations.
(my Conn officer would indeed state that, since smallcraft managing seems to be in his blood)
Otherwise, I’d not care about the extra shuttle capacity.

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I think is is because of your definition of “extra”. Here is my 2 cents based on my time in the Navy. Some of this you will already know, but it is easier for me if I spell everything out so I don’t miss something.

A ship operates 24 hrs a day and has to have personnel awake and at stations during the entire 24 hrs.

Some tasks are manned in 8 hours shifts, but some are defined as needing a higher state of alertness and are manned in 4 hr shifts.

For each station actively performing the task and then the endless preventative and routine maintenance as well as cleaning. Yes cleaning, of gear and the spaces. You would be amazed just how much dirt accumulates in a small enclosed space occupied by a large number of people for an extended time.

The crew is usually divided up into Duty Sections, with 4 sections being the normal number in the Squadrons I served with, though a larger organization can have 6 or 8 depending on the unit, size of crew and its normal tasking, while there are instances of 3 section.

Note: I am speaking from a naval air perspective with an exposure to shipboard methods so others may have had different experiences.

The Duty Sections are usually divided into Port and Starboard sections along the lines of odd and even. Depending on the manning and the mission, a single Duty Section (DS) can fight the ship or conduct flight operations. The Port or Starboard watch (DS 1&3 or DS 2&4), should be able to operate for an extended time (more than 4 hrs but probably less that 12 hrs).

Assuming 4 sections that means you have at a minimum 4 personnel per specialized job, though their level of training and experience may be different. With multiple personnel in each section for more generalized jobs.

For the purpose of this discussion, let’s assume that we have one trained bridge officer per station per section. Even under normal cruising, a starship would want the bridge crew to be alert and able to react quickly, so my guess is they would be on a 4 hr watch rotation.

Now have the ship go to GQ and all hands go to stations. Well there is only one person at each bridge station and only one person heading up Engineering, and so on. But you have at least 3 other people trained for each position, they are the “extras” people are referring to. They would report to other stations for the duration. Reporting to a damage control locker is a common one.

“Extra” crew refers to extra during an emergency or combat situation, not the manning needed to man the ship for the long haul and to account for people being gone for illness or leave.

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I take it back, I heard about a British submarine prior to WW2 that was on a short cruise to show off to civilian contractors, Admirals, their staffs etc. (Extra personnel) In short, it sank. It subsequently (pun intended) raised itself, but the decision was made NOT to cut into the hull to free the trapped survivors, for fear of making the ship unstable.

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I really don’t know who is misunderstanding whom, now, but, again:
A day on earth has 24 hours. This day is roughly divided up into: 8 hours of sleep, 8 hours of work, 8 hours of leisure time. This is (roughly) true to the navies and their ships, today. There is evidence that this is also true to Starfleet ships (cf. my posts above).

To narrow down a bit what @Spence explained extensively (thank you!): Warships (and, for our concern: Starfleet Ships) tend to operate 24 hours a day. This means that you need more personnel (in total) aboard than you have stations (in total). E.g. the CONN station would be manned for 24 hours. But Ensign A, assuming he would still need 8 hours of sleep and would still get 8 hours of free-time, could man the CONN only for 8 hours. After this 8 hours, he would leave his station. Now Ensign B would take over for additional 8 hours, meaning that 16 hours would have passed in total. But the day is 24 hours long and Ensign A would still have 8 hours of free time before he would resume his duties at the CONN. So, now, Ensign C would take over to relieve Ensign B. After Ensign C has served her 8 hours at the CONN, Ensign B would still be occupied which whatever she does with her time off, but Ensign A would be ready for another shift.

In other words: If your ship operates all day long, it’s safe to assume that you have 3 (or, as @Spence pointed out in their more extensive explanation) or even 4 persons per specialised job.

But in times of emergency or combat, you would of course wake everyone on board and would probably re-route energy from the holodecks to the phaser banks. In other words: No sleeping, no leisure time – all hands to battle stations. But when this occurs in the shift of Ensign A? Will she move over so that she can share her seat at the CONN with the Ensigns B and C so they can operate the CONN six-handed? Probably not.

Instead, my take is that they would go to the shuttle-bay and man a shuttle.

And this is what we mean by “extra” crew. They are not “extra” in the long run, meaning longer than any given shift because they are part of the number of personnel that is needed to operate the ship longer than a day. But that number differs from the number of personnel that is needed to operate the ship at any given time, that would be considerably lower. The difference between the number of “crew we need to operate the ship for a week” and the number of “crew we need to operate the ship right now” is what we call “extra crew”. Because at any given time ignoring the duty-roster because everyone could die any minute anyway you would have people trained to man stations that are manned already by alpha/beta/gamma shift.

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Many navies maintained schedules that resulted in a work day not equalling the sidereal day… US and UK used 7 watches, but watches rotating so that you don’t pull the same watches each day. I’ve seen documentation for all of the following having been used in various times in the USN and RN. Lowercase for dogwatches:
2 shifts 1w on 1w off: ||: ABABabA | BABAbaB :||
2 shifts 2w on 2w off: ||: AABBaaB | BAABbaA | ABBAabB | BAABbaA | BBAABbaA | ABBAabB :||
3 shifts 1w on 2w off ||:ABCAbcA | BCABcaB | CABCabC :||
3 shifts 2w on 4w off ||: AABBccA | ABBCcaA | BBCCaaB | BCCAbbC | CAABbcC :||
4 shift 1w on 3w off ||: ABCDabC | DABCdaB | CDABcdA | BCDAbcD :||
9 shift kelly on 7 watch ||: ABACacB | CBABacA | CBCBabA | CACBcbA | BACAcbC | BABAcaC | BCBAbaC | ACBCbaB | ACACbcB :|| Individual it’s WRWRWSSSS the guaranteed 14 off was liked; the 26 hour personal day wasn’t. Note that the workday would be 10 hours of 16 or 18 awake.

Alternate schedules I’ve seen documentation for:
“Five and Dime” 3 shifts. 5h on, 10h off, total 15 hour personal day. Complaints that it was too short, making it hard to sleep.
“Half and dozen” - similar to the Five and dime, but 6 and 12 hours. Reduced the too short complaints
3 shift Kelly with 3 hour watches reduced the too long a workday issue, but didn’t mesh with navy timekeeping standards… personal day was 27 hours, but guaranteed 12 off outside combat, so you had time for food and hygiene before and after rack.
3 shift kelly with straight 2 hour watches… 18 hour day, with 8 hours rack time… which meant almost no one got more than 7 hours sleep - since you got off shift, showered, personal hygiene, hit the rack, then had to wake up 20-30 min of an hour ahead to get to duty on time. But at least it meshed with the bell schedule…
4shifts 8 watches of 3 hours 3-3-3-15 ||: ABABCDCD :|| Complaints about spreading staff too thin…

The factors for morale of restroom and lunch breaks also complicate schedules…

The USN has written several volumes on the research of watch shifts aboard ship. Some of which even some admirals show their ignorance of…

Note that some ships run duty shifts on the watch system, some don’t, and the actual standing of non-station watches is, in some variations, additional duty outside the work day, in others, simply is the workday.

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Unless he was on Captain Jellicoe’s ship, then he would stand watch on a four watch plam. (Intended as humor, but also to show there are more variations.) It is probably easiest to stick with the 8 hour watch for simplicity sake. Four on four off is also a possibility.

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I imagine duty watches are less something specificly mandated in the regs and are more flexable to account for the fact that differant species have differant requirements.If for example, you have a crew of mostly Exampleatians who thanks to a quark of their planets cycle sleep every 6 hours, standard 8 hour 3 duty shfits may not work.

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I actually mentioned Jellico (the episode he occured in, to be precise) and his duty shift model and also, that the three-shift model seemed to be standard at least on Starfleet’s flagship. :wink:

@BrianDavion I used the example of duty watches to make a point. That point is that only a portion of the ships crew would operate the ship at any given time while actually a major portion of the crew would recreate. I did this because originally someone argued that it was illogical that a Galaxy Class starship, according to the rules as written, could operate more shuttlecraft when the saucer section was separated from the secondary hull. The argument of said poster was that there would not be enough personell aboard the ship to man both bridges to coordinate more shuttles than with only one bridge.

My counterargument is that there is indeed enough personell and that you indeed could rule that a separated Galaxy (or Nebula) Class starship can manage more shuttles than a non-separated ship with only one of the two bridges manned.

Going into duty watches in detail was not intended because the exact scheme is not relevant to the point that you would need at least three persons per console on your ship you want permanently manned and operated.

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It’s also worth considering that local variations may apply, for stations on or heavily connected to planets: I’m certain that DS9 operated a 26-hour day, as that’s a day on Bajor, and the Bajoran government owns the station (even if Starfleet handles the running of it).

This would be a factor in determining which shift patterns are most effective/least disruptive, especially in civilian-facing facilities like DS9 (cuvilians won’t care about crew shift patterns).

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Nathan, that’s 100% correct. They mentiin the station ooerating on a 26 hour day in several episodes. Bearing in mind that the majority of the crew were Bajoran, with the senior and primary command positions being handled by Federation personnel, except security, of course.