Saucer Separation and Supporting Small Craft

Star Trek Adventures
42

Honestly, there was literally no way to write something which represented so complex an effect in a simple way… and there would have been uproar if it was excluded, or if I’d given over a dozen pages to something which applies only to a tiny proportion of ships.

Ship separation is a pain in the backside no matter how you approach it. I do honestly wish that the idea had been scrapped as a concept before it was ever depicted on screen, because nothing good has come of it.

So, use a bit of common sense when applying the rules, don’t try and use it to loophole out extra shuttles, because if you do, I will come to your house and bludgeon you unconscious with the rulebook.

Well, I actually won’t (because that sounds like a lot of effort), but honestly, this shouldn’t require any extra clauses to say “don’t be an honourless petaQ”.

8 Likes
43

Actually, the only loophole that would allow for extra shuttles would be the abovementioned captain’s yacht. By the rules, the “point limit” regarding shuttlecraft are not actual shuttles but the shuttles that can simultaneosly operated (flight control etc.). I see no problem in that number going up when operating from two bridges instead of one.

And arguing the rules to be bad because of this so-called “loophole”… Well. I will not even call this rules-lawyering because no sane lawyer would really consider this a valid argument – because, welle, common-sense!
(Besides that, I am well aware that there is a high number of people considering ‘sane lawyer’ a contradiction in terms and have no argument against that but that’s a ocmpletely different story at all. :D).

44

Part of that ‘hard’ limit on simultaneously operated shuttles has to do with not only the available space in the shuttle bays, but also the number of personnel on the ship available to operate said shuttles. (You only have so many pilots available.) Operating the ship as two parts cuts that number down more, it does not increase it.

If this ‘situation’ is happening during combat, that cuts the number down even more because you need stand-by pilots in case the ones operating the ship get injured, not to mention the fact that you have to lower the shields in order to deploy or recover shuttlecraft. It does not make any sense to do that during combat.

45

Please let me respectfully disagree: Taking the Galaxy Class into account, that was mentioned by the thread-starter. These ships are, according to the Core Rulebook, typically equipped with 30 shuttlecraft. A Galaxy Class starship is manned with a crew of 1,000. Given that virtually every officer in starfleet is able to operate shuttlecraft and given that the ships normally are manned by enough crew to be operated in a three shift watch system – I still see no problem in that number going up when operating from two bridges instead of one.

In my humbly opinion, the “bottle neck” for operations lies in operation managing and/or command, thus, in leading the operation. At least, that would reasonably support the RAW. Also, it would even respect that “cut down”, since the main bridge on the saucer section used to operate five “points” of shuttlecraft and is now limited to four. The second section, that could normally operate the full five points if regularly connected (we have seen the second bridge as a battle-bridge without separating, which totally makes sense imho) is also restricted to four. But since there are actually two crews working, it is just nicely compensated.

46

But there aren’t two crews working. It’s the same crew split between two sections of ship. This is the same arguement that the the original poster was trying to make. Just separating the ship does not magically multiply the equipment or resources available to the ship simply because it is split in two.

Yes, the Galaxy class had 30+ shuttles and other small craft within it, and a lot of them were in storage and completely powered down. Separating the Saucer section from the Engineering section doesn’t magically create more room in the 3 shuttle bays of a Galaxy class for you to unpack all 30 shuttles and other support craft. There is still only enough room in those shuttle bays for a finite amount of shuttles to come and go.

47

Not necessarily. As I said, crew works in shifts (naval term would be watches, I think. English is not my first language). This is consistent over the TNG-era shows, e.g. Cpt Jellico and Cmdr Riker have a discussion over switching from a three-shift-model to a four-shift model, there is an episode of Data having a night-shift and Harry Kim in Voyager repeatedly mentions having night-shift for eight hours.

So, waking up some personell should be easy as pie. Making two crews, if the players want so. Since the ship actually has (up to) three crews to man all stations around the clock. Even if they operate on a ‘traditional’ 2-section dogged watch – there are two crews. :slight_smile:

48

No, there is still only one crew. You’re not miraculously cloning people and getting twice as many people on the ships. I honestly don’t care if you are going to red alert, you aren’t going to have enough stations or consoles to accomodate the entire crew being up and working at the same time. The ship isn’t built for that, and neither are the shuttles or the shuttle bays.

That’s not even going into (in game terms) the complication range and increased difficulty you’d run into for pulling people from sleep and forcing everyone to work a 24 hour shift.

49

…of a thousand(!) people in the case of a galaxy class. Only 300–500 are needed at the same time to operate the ship. Even in the 24th century, people need to sleep.

You are perfectly correct. I do not miraculously clone people, because there are already enough on the ship. In case of a Galaxy Class, at the risk of repeating myself, one thousand. Only 300–500 are needed for normal operation mode (cf. e.g. TNG 6x10, Chain of Command, Part I). I do not need to clone, since it suffices to just wake people up. Just a sidenote on that: Not all personnel off-duty is sleeping. Normally, in a 3-shift-system, which Starfleet normally seems to use (cf. ibid), one shift is working, one shift is off-duty but has to be ready for duty if needed (sorry, there is a technical term for that that eludes me) and one shift is sleeping. So, technically, I even do not need to wake people up. I just need to use shipwide comm to – anounce somewhat even less than a all-hands-maneuver.

I actually have two bridges on a Galaxy-Class. As shown in even the pilot of TNG, if I remember correctly. With consoles, and all. As I already stated, the second bridge seem to be fully-operational. Thus, when both bridges normally can operate up to the full 5 points – why shouldn’t both bridges, given an all hands maneuver (I would argue that only a “two-third-hands-maneuver” would be needed… :wink: ) is commanded (in the peril of battle where we need to separate the two sections…) operate at least four ships? This already takes the “cuts” of crew into consideration.

Would be perfectly fine for me. Even adds “realism”, so to speak. I would completely be up to it and would demand momentum and/or threat from my players, if this mode of operation would last for more than just a few hours (meaning: one shift, to be precise).

Anyway, you need not be convinced by my arguments. And I have to admit that you do have some fair points. But I would, in the end, argue that in a game where we play breaking the light barrier every other dice roll without a second thought, these simple considerations taking actual navies’ operation modes into account, are reasonable enough to allow operating 8 shuttlecraft from the two sections of a separated Galaxy-Class without shattering the suspension of disbelief.

But that my be only my opinion. :slight_smile:

50

I still don’t see when this is actually going to become an issue? You have a group of 6 players (probably generous for most groups) on a ship that can take 5 shuttles for example. You then separate the saucer, using the above argument getting 10 shuttles. Even if you abandon the ship to taking no actions, you still cant crew 4 of those shuttles with a player to cause them to act (without misusing the support character mechanic)? That seems overly pointless to me.

Someone put some context to this please, else the argument is completely pointless anyway!

51

That right there is called Extensive Shuttlebays (10 shuttles normally without separating), without all the fast-talk and talk-around about crews. You want to do that, take the Talent. :stuck_out_tongue:

@mattcapiche, At this point, I think we are just arguing for the sake of arguing, in a friendly and respectful manner, of course. :slight_smile:

1 Like
52

I think you hit the nail on the head here Matt. What matters is how many shuttles the players can make use of at a time - and that’s governed by the rule.

If you look at the way the shuttlebays seem to operate in the show - and probably controversially in Discovery and the movies - there are quite a few shuttles in operation at any one time. But anything operated by the crew for normal duties doesn’t really count as it doesn’t affect the players’ stories.

I have to say, I’ve never seen so many spherical cows rolling down the same hill…

53

Maybe I am wrong, but wouldn’t be most shuttle operators/pilots be from Command division? And wouldn’t be operating two bridges at the same time need more of the command division?
In Voyager the normal shuttle pilot is Tom Paris, the helmsman.
So couldn’t it be that, the saucer separation would reduce the possible shuttle operation number?

54

Technically, it is the Conn department that deals with pilots. However, your question is still valid, and one of the points that I was attempting to make in my arguments.

Sure, with the cross-training of Starfleet officers, anyone can pilot a shuttle. However, would you want a whole bunch of shuttles flying around with a pilot barely qualified to fly, or with someone who has piloting as their main job?

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Really they’re part of the command division, as there are only the three primary divisions: Command, Operations, and Sciences.

56

Yes, Command and Conn are part of the Command Division, etc etc. However, I believe in the instance of his question/argument, he was referring to the Command Department of ship stats. Which is what I responded to. All pilots fall within the Conn Department of ship stats, be they regular shuttle pilots, or the pilots in charge of flying the ship itself.

57

But still shuttle pilots and helmsman draw from the same pool.
And imo there must be more positions on a spaceship, which needed Conn personal. I am not sure, but maybe the navigator is also Conn?
But there are only a limited number of crew members, which really quality as pilot. So a situation, which needed more Conn personal, would/should reduce other options, which also needed Conn personal?!

58

Unless there are problems, most Conn tasks are at difficulty 0. Any member of personnel is capable of piloting a shuttle regardless of department.

59

For routine maneuvers this is true, but it really depends on a number of factors. Where they’re flying (are there spatial anomolies or asteroid fields?), what they’re carrying (are they transporting volitile substances?) and why they are flying (are they running combat support in an engagement?).

60

Navigation is Conn, but of course, it’s not a separate position in the 24th century.

IIRC from the Command book, Conn does cover a few other related areas, but is primarily concerned with making things move. But Conn officers tend to wind up working in all kinds of other areas on the ship (outside Conn), because they’re basically baby Command personnel - and need to experience all areas of starship operation before taking command of one. This is one rationale as to why LaForge went from Conn to Engineering.

1 Like
61

Sure, any Starfleet Officer (and, really, anyone with a Conn score of 1 or higher) will have the basic understanding of operating a shuttle. But that’s equivalent to having an ordinary driving license. At least in the 24th century, a shuttle can be computer-controlled to automate simple journeys - though you still have a qualified pilot on board in case of emergencies.

But that doesn’t mean that an officer only rated for basic shuttle operations will be assigned to take a shuttle out - there’ll be dedicated, qualified pilots for that, people who have been trained to operate a wider range of craft in a variety of different circumstances.

It’s the difference between someone who’s just passed their basic driving test, and a qualified pilot with hundreds of flight-hours of experience.

The “Conn department as apprentice Command personnel” thing is pretty much the way I approach things - Worf and LaForge both start out as Bridge personnel in TNG season 1, Wesley starts out as Conn officer during his “acting Ensign” years, and TNG has a succession of lower-ranking Conn officers who’re presumably just starting out in their careers. It’s a good place to see how a ship operates, as a starting point for an officer aspiring to Command.