Am I correct in reading the group rules in that a particular member of the group performs the attack (or any) action, and the others contribute an additional dice, so the primary member will roll 2D20 per a normal attack, and then if the group is full at 5, each other member will contribute an additional die for a total of 6. Then Doom can be spent for up to 3 more dice, for a maximum total of 9? If there’s a leader then the two primary dice could have a better chance of hitting, so do the dice added through Doom use that member’s target value?
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Confirmed. That’s how I understand it to work as well.
Yes. 2d20 for the Toughened leader of the squad, +4d20 for the Minions, +3d20 for Doom = 9d20.
The added dice use the TN of the leader, as you cannot add dice to an assist die which is always only a single d20.
That is quite a dangerous attack pool, although a squad is very weak on the defense, not being able to make Reactions at all.
For some PC groups, especially those with a few thousand XP already spent, this is actually recommended to be able to even challenge them.
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We’re all in agreement here. Essentially, the squad leader (or a random member of a mob) takes the Attack action, with each Minion surrounding them using their Standard to take the Assist action. The Toughened leader may spend Doom for the usual up to 3 bonus die. Those assisting with an action cannot use any means of adding die to their own roll, except those provided by talents, as shown on page 100 of the Corebook (I provide citations because using this book as a reference can be difficult).
So yes, effectively a squad of five rolls 6 dice normally, and up to 9 if Doom is spent. I just thought knowing the why of it might be helpful.
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Oh my . . . I have been doing mobs all wrong then . . . I thought five d20’s was the maximum you could roll during a test or struggle. Max . . . talents, squads, mobs, momentum, doom . . . We have been playing maxed out at 5 . . . This would really change a lot . . .
It is the maximum that any one player or NPC can use on a given roll, but if you’re assisting that player then your D20 is your own contribution and doesn’t count toward that cap.
In the case of mobs or squads, each of the minion characters is essentially Assisting the boss/nominee who’s doing the attacking.
In the case of a squad, the minions roll their d20 against their own attack TN, and if they hit they add +1 successes to the boss’ own success totals.
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Yup, I was doing it wrong too, until I thoroughly re-read the group rules for something else on another thread. Then I thought “hang on…” and that’s also why I put it in this thread, with a very deliberate title, that would attract the attention of other folks. Given the usual consistent max of 5 dice, I would have thought this “exception” probably should have been explicitly mentioned in that section to avoid understandable assumptions.
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And what about the combat dice?
If I understand right only the leader’s weapon stats are used, since he’s the one doing the tests. And you hope to get multiple momentum from the d20 dice pool roll to do bonus damage? Because if you don’t everyone else has their hands in their pockets.
And it’s the opposite when being hit, it’s a minion’s defense stat that is being used since the leader is target last?
Kind of wish a squad/mob was its own encounter. i don’t know why I get stuck on the squad/mobs rules so much
Squad attacking someone:
The leader of a Squad not only makes the leading 2d20 roll, assisted by the other members’ 1d20 Assist roll, but the leader is the one, who makes the damage roll.
The damage roll depends on the weapon the leader used in the attack, not on the assisting Minon’s armament.
So if you have a leader with a sword, Reach 2, doing 4[CD] damage, assisted by three Minions with daggers, Reach 1, doing 3[CD] damage, then for determining the Reach of the attack and the damage caused, you will only take the stats of the leader.
Minions assisting makes the chances to succeed in a Struggle versus a defender who could perform Reactions (PC, Toughened or Nemesis NPC) much better, and provides Momentum for not only adding to the damage, but to spend on Momentum Spends like Disarm.
Squad being attacked:
A Squad getting attacked normally gets NO Reaction at all - that is: no defense. None. (There are some Warfare Talents that circumvent this if the characters involved have learned them.)
Minions don’t have any defense at all - no defense, ever. None.
Only individually acting Toughened and Nemesis characters and PCs may - for the cost of generating Doom - perform a Reaction.
If someone with a sword (Reach 2) attacks a Squad with a leader with a Sword (Reach 2) and 4 Minions with spears (Reach 3), only the leader’s weapon matters as the others only assist .That means, it would be Reach 2 versus Reach 2, not Reach 2 versus Reach 3, so not +1 Difficulty on the attack.
In an attacked Squad, the advantage for the leader is, that any damage the attacker causes, will be first applied to the supporting Minions in the Squad - unless the attacker spends 2 Momentum to single out the leader.
What do you mean by that? What do you mean by “encounter”?
It could be that your PCs do encounter a single Squad of a Toughened NPC and a handful of Minions. The Squad is treated as a single opponent, getting only a single turn in a combat round, performing only a single Minor and a single Standard Action, and no Reactions at all.
Thanks for the reply, when you say no defense, i did not allow reactions to squads but i was using the minion’s soak for the first kills and then the leader’s soak in the end.
Which I understand now does not respect the mechanics as the leader is always the one involved.
But does his soak count or is that defense and he gets none?
What I mean by its own encounter is if a squad/mob had its own entry in the encounter section of the book. It was not the right word as the encounter is the whole fight. I should have said a foe, like squad (minion / toughened) defined with stats of a squad. As if we were using a miniature with only one larger base but that represented more than one “soldiers” on it. There would have to be a table of variants for the number of individual enemy in the squad, not necessarily the best idea.
Armor soak (and if applicable Cover soak) will be applied to damage as normal. This is damage reduction, not really a defense (which is active, as in performing a Reaction).
That would make things less variable. If you have entries for Minion NPCs and Toughened NPCs etc., you can decide if and how many you want to join into a group - a Mob or a Squad.
Sometimes, a Mob loses some members, but can add some from the remaining ones of another Mob.
The characters in a Mob are separate, they are not like a giant swarm-like creature, so they can separate from the Mob, do their own actions, if necessary. If a Mob of guards gets beaten up, one can separate to run to raise an alarm, for example.
I find it a very flexible way to handle groups and individuals.
If Squad works as a leader (toughened) assisted by 4 minions, then according pg. 100 of manual ( teamwork and assistance) the minions only add their d20 if the leader has at lest one exit in his roll. In addition, minions make their roll against their own TN (not the leader’s TN).
Is that right?
Yes, that is right. For simplicity, a Mob of only Minion NPCs rolls against their TN (for all the same, as they all have the same stats) and it usually is not determined who is the actual leader, to find out whether the Assist actions of the other members do even count. Mobs of Minions are already so incompetent and cannon fodder, that this is simply not worth it.
But for a Squad led by a Toughened or even a Nemesis NPC, you roll the 2d20 for the leader, roll eventual bonus d20 bought for Doom for this leader NPC, all versus the leader’s TN. Then you roll the 4d20 for the Minions assisting. - Only if the leader had rolled at least a single success, the successes the Minions rolled count. Else the whole action failed.
Thank you.
Your interpretation is plausible, but the rules are not crystal clear.
It is also possible to state that the minion leading the mob is required to have at least one success on his 1d20 roll (if not spending DOOM) to enable the other minions in the mob to add their successes, as a normal assist action should require for the PCs.
The second paragraph of the « Taking action » column (p.306) states that :
« When a group takes an action requiring a test, nominate a single creature within the group - in the case of a Squad this will always be the Leader - to lead the action. This creature is the one taking the action, for all intent and purposes. Each creature in the group not leading the action contributes a single d20 to the test, using their own attributes and skills, effectively assisting the nominated creature’s actions. »
The next sentence only states that the attributes and skills of all the minions should be the same, but it does not states clearly that the mob rolls all the dice at once without the necessity of identifying a leader.
Once again, maybe you are right, but there is room for interpretation here.
Maybe the authors could answer this question?
@Modiphius-Nathan might shed some light on that.
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I’ve found that requiring a single minion to succeed rather than just rolling all the dice at once makes them a) less effective and b) takes more time at the table. Neither of those are ideal for me.
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Your argument is quite valid and I understand perfectly your interpretation for game balancing purposes.
Nonetheless, I am curious to know what are the official rules for Mobs according to the authors of the game.
Didn’t one of the actual play videos Modiphius did give an answer for this? I remember that in a lot of the 2d20 game the watching an actual official actual play of them gave clarity to how certain rules worked.
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Thank you.
Do you have a link for that video ?