By RAW when should you be able to spend a determination to get Perfect Opportunity, is it intended to be before the roll is made or can it be purchased after the roll has been made?
I think you would have to spend it before the roll is made. Perfect Opportunity grants you essentially a bonus d20, and bonus d20s can only be purchased before the roll.
After the roll, you can only use Moment of Inspiration (i.e. re-roll all d20s).
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Yes, its before the roll. As part of the mechanic it affects the momentum cost of buying further dice, so this can only work before the roll. Its also very OP if taken after you see the result (talking from experience, having gotten this wrong before).
To build on what @mattcapiche is stating, what is in the book is that you can get at most 5 dice on any given Task roll. Momentum/Threat can be used to buy extra dice at a cost of 1/2/3 for each respective extra dice. You can get an extra dice by spending determination which automatically rolls a 1 (2 successes) and you can get additional dice from certain talents.
However what isnât in the book is order of precedence. Order of precedence is stated on Pg 80 of the Core Rulebook
Determination -> Talent -> Momentum/Threat
- Extra dice 1 (Determination or Talent or 1 Momentum/Threat)
- Extra dice 2 (Talent or 2 Momentum/Threat)
- Extra dice 3 (3 Momentum/Threat)
Note that if you spend Determination and then get Extra dice 2 and 3, you will only end up rolling 4 dice. The Determination one has already rolled a 1.
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This is as I thought, and read it, but I wanted official confirmation.
I am not sure where the dice flow chart comes from, whoâs to say where extra dice are ordered?
I mis-stated. It is in the book, but it is easily missed.
Core Rulebook Pg 80
âBonus dice bought with Determination or from Talents are applied before any bought with Momentum or Threat, for the purposes of how much Momentum or Threat those dice costâ
Personally, in my opinion, I donât think that the dice granted from Talents should affect the cost of dice bought through Momentum and Threat. Yes, they should count towards the 5 dice total, but not the cost of purchasing extra dice.
My reasoning in this thought is this: In regards to talents the character has used a talent to acquire it, and in that talent it says that the die granted is free. Specific example being âI know my shipâ engineering talent on page 137. It specifically says at the end add one bonus D20. It was a bonus and free, not paid for. Therefor it should not affect the number cost for another D20 being purchased through Momentum or Threat.
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The momentum section on page 80 specifically speaks of âthe second bonus die costs 2 momentum, while the third bonus die costs 3.â
Combined with the final paragraph stating specific order that bonus dice are applied, its dossnt matter the cost paid, or lack there of, for the initial bonus die. In fact, if determination and a talent are both used, buying any dice with create opportunity immediately places the cost at 3 momentum. This is reinforced on page 85 in the create opportunity section.
I agree, that is what it says. However, I still feel like bonus die granted from Talents shoudlnât add towards the cost of purchasing dice through Momentum or Threat. It makes it seem a bit like a punishment for taking the talent in the first place. âOh, you get a bonus die. Youâd like to buy another die? Ok, it costs more than it normally would for buying one.â
Then again, I donât like the incremental increase in the cost of purchasing extra dice anyway⌠A lot of the streamed shows of Star Trek Adventures that I have seen played, the GM doesnât always award the right amount of Momentum, or simply forgets to hand out the momentum. That makes it even more difficult (or close to impossible) to even attempt difficulty 4 or 5 tasks with 4 dice.
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Alright I completely missed this paragraph from page 80:
Bonus dice bought with Determination or from Talents are applied before any bought with Momentum or Threat, for the purposes of how much Momentum or Threat those dice cost.
So by RAW you are correct, and I have my answer, thank you all.
I get your point @SSiron, it does seem like a bit of a double edged sword. I think itâs quite important in terms of balance to have momentum sinks like that though.
From my experience of running the game, groups with properly set up characters/crews tend to be able to create reliable pools of momentum (spending momentum for extra dice on a lower difficulty check with a target number of 15+ and a crit range of 5 is a strong ramp tactic). Constantly having momentum can actually be detrimental to the story, as being constantly able spend can make certain events/challenges anticlimactic.
How do the GMâs youâve watched tend to get momentum wrong?
More often than not, it seems like they simply forget to reward it, or ârequireâ it after a roll for the obtain information spend before even giving away any information from a sensor scan. Also most of the plays that I have seen have not always had characters that are optimized for specific rolls. Or the characters are being asked to roll on their off abilities frequently with 3 to 4 difficulty and having less than a 14 with no focus applicable. Often when the GM asks for a specific roll, I wonder why he picked that attribute and discipline when it more easily and obviously falls under a different one which that character may be a little better at.
Then again, I donât like the incremental increase in the cost of purchasing extra dice anyway⌠A lot of the streamed shows of Star Trek Adventures that I have seen played, the GM doesnât always award the right amount of Momentum, or simply forgets to hand out the momentum. That makes it even more difficult (or close to impossible) to even attempt difficulty 4 or 5 tasks with 4 dice.
Just FYI, the original play test version of the game used 2 momentum per die. The rising cost came out of a quite extensive discussion about the effects of this, especially as regards âfarmingâ, and was generally agreed to be the best solution after further testing.
Personally, Iâve found it works quite well. Players find the first die is easy to acquire so they nearly always go for it, but more extensive spends become the exception rather than the rule. In a game with a limited range of difficulties and the ability to get an automatic success on really basic tasks, the scale makes sense.
And I know itâs a little pat, but higher difficulty tasks should be difficult or near impossible - thatâs why theyâre higher difficulty!
That just sounds more like bad GMing than a problem with the rules to be honest. My players know that they gain momentum for extra successes, so even if I forget to announce the award, they will ask if they gained the extra.
Rolling weaker abilities is just general RPG play (barbarian stealth rolls anyone?), especially as the setting assumes a basic education in everything (it also assumes you are usually a department head, which is where the specialisation comes from). A 10 is still a 50-50 chance to get a success though.
The skill selection thing I can definately see, as sometimes it can be a little subjective or grey.
Itâs interesting that it was originally 2 momentum each. That certainly feels more expensive, even though the 3 dice total is the same.
I actually find that difficulty 5 checks are pretty possible in a lot of situations (diff 5 with a ship or/and character assist and bought dice, talents and determination possible to find ways to use), but then Iâm probably just a little generous with momentum and assists!
The escalating cost was indeed a late change, which is why the talents donât necessarily reflect it (the book was into layout by that point, so the change had to interrupt the text flow as little as possible). Originally, each die was 1 Momentum, which made it far too easy for characters to put maximum dice into a task and get back everything they spent and more. The change to an escalating cost (as in the finished game) required that I consider how âfreeâ dice (dice not paid for with Momentum or Threat) came into that, and I figured that the least abusable version was to apply the âfreeâ dice first (so that the first âfreeâ die replaces the one that would cost 1 Momentum).
Youâre still getting a discount - if you get a die from a talent, then youâre only paying 2 for rolling 4 dice, rather than 3 - but I felt it was important that going all-in on a task (5 dice, plus anything else you can throw at it) was still a costly act that characters had to consider carefully.
Oh, and itâs not entirely a problem that difficulty 5 checks are possible - the point with Difficulty in 2d20 System games is more that higher-difficulty rolls require more effort (buying dice, getting help, etc) rather than just being less likely. The question a difficult task asks is âhow much are you willing to put into this?â, not just âwhat are the chances?â
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