Projectile Weapons

Interesting question.
I suspect the force would be dissipated, given it does that for projectiles it should still do it for area effect energy.
I suspect it would also protect against heat and fire as it offers a barrier. But the gas permeable nature of them might not offer very much.
One for each GM to figure out I suspect! :slight_smile:

My take would be that the shield dissipates kinetic energy no matter how it originates. Kinetic force doesn’t just transmit through a vacuum, it moves by moving matter. In cases where it looks like the kinetic energy is an invisible wave of force- concussive blasts from explosions- what is actually happening is air molecules are carrying the energy. In effect, a concussive blast is no different to shrapnel- it’s just that the “pellets” are molecule-sized. The shield still deflects it and leaves the shielded trooper standing.

There’s a reason that the Baron Harkonnen states in the book that modern-style artillery is obsolete to the point of being nearly forgotten. If the kinetic blast wave from a shell could harm a shielded soldier, that wouldn’t be the case.

In this case as with many others I think the best rule of thumb for a GM is to think based on the setting, not the pseudoscience. If a given thing worked one way and not another, would the society of the Imperium still work as shown in the books? If the answer is No, then it doesn’t work that way.

Now, the question of heat is a good one- but it’s possible that a shield might also affect heat convection and only heat transfer through radiation can occur. That would mean shields insulate like heavy coats which also has interesting implications, especially on Arrakis. In effect, anyone wearing a shield is standing in a one-man greenhouse if that is true.

Another implication of the shield stopping an explosive blast wave is that the shield would, in theory, also stop any air molecule above a certain speed. So with an active personal shield someone could walk through a hurricane and not be blown down.

Maybe a seperate thread is needed for shield brainstorming. I might look to start one when it’s not well past midnight as I type.

My take on shields was that fast moving objects could not penetrate them ever. My curiosity is the repelling nature of them. And would a sufficient explosion create deadly heat or would the waves of heat be repelled?

The dissipation or reflection of energy makes sense but it does raise the question of what was happening in the movie. Explosive energy is dissipated but a solid punch can knock you off your feet?

The movie is great to watch but has several points where a Dune purist would look at what was going on and ask how that was supposed to work. It’s the most faithful adaption yet, but it still went with Rule of Cool when how things are supposed to work in the novels conflicted with what would look best on the big screen.

The issue with the punch is a valid one, but it still doesn’t hold a candle to Duncan’s escape in the Ornithopter. There’s a full scale battle happening on the ground below and yet a Lasgun is being fired? If it had been aiming up at the 'Thopter I could suspend disbelief…

It gets even better when you realise that the 'thopter is shielded (you see the red shift cover it when it blows up the drop ships) and they are firing a lasgun at it.
They are actively firing at a shielded target with a lasgun.

So yeah, Movie runs on rule of cool.
Which to be fair it generally hits.

To go back to the original question of the topic- how common are projectile weapons- I think that a key part of the answer lies in the name. “Maula Pistol”- according to the glossary at the end of Dune Maula means Slave, so the most common projectile weapon is named a “Slave Pistol”. (Maula can have other meanings in modern languages but Frank Herbert clearly states this is what it means in Dune’s era.)

This is very significant to me. There are two possible meanings. It could mean that Maula Pistols are meant for use against slaves- that is, to use in the suppression of revolts by the lower classes who won’t have access to shields. They would definitely be more effective than blades against unshielded troops and I can easily picture Household Troops having caches of Maula Pistols to be distributed if such an uprising happens.

The other potential meaning is that they’re used by slaves- the high velocity projectile weapon has, in this era, become the signature weapon of the lower classes. The technological knowledge and infrastructure needed to create projectile weapons is probably far less than that needed to make a personal shield generator and thus Maula Pistols could be turned out in illegal back-alley workshops. I imagine they’d be much less regulated by the authorities as well. If anything, the Nobility might be happy for the criminal gangs to be arming themselves with archaic weapons that are utterly useless against the ruling classes but whose existence means they are less likely to focus on melee fighting skills that might help against Household Troops.

This is my take on things, but I feel that it fits. In my version of the Imperium of Dune the seedy criminal underbelly has Maula Pistols as commonly as modern criminal gangs have firearms, but the Noble Houses only issue them to their troops to suppress popular revolts even if they’re present in the armouries. While they’ll all have been given basic training in their use these troops probably don’t practice with Maula Pistols much either, so being good enough to have a Focus in Maula Pistols is likely the mark of a character with a criminal origin.

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Maula pistol denotes it is produced by slaves, much like shivs are produced in prison. Use of materials at hand to create a deadly weapon.
For the Fremen it seems to be part of a rite of passage in the movie.

Another use of the mauls pistol as a weapon used by the lower class is that it can be concealed, and subtly pushed through a shield and fired. This would be a suicidal assassination since it would alert the house guards who would cut you down…

I’ll note that a personal shield would not be enabled all the time.
Dune notes several limits to them: limited charge, they restrict movement and hearing, and the shield also limits gas transfer so over time air within a shield becomes stale and uncomfortable if not deadly. All irrelevant for short combat, but for long term use, such as guard duty, these are problematic.

That said, if one manages to sneak up behind someone who has active shield, one might as well use a knife. Would be more silent than a projectile weapon if nothing else.

In regards of the topic in general, i think that projectile weapons are not in use in general within the Imperium. Obviously the concept exists, so perhaps they can be found in museums and hunting weapons or the like. But for warfare in general, no, because of the rules of War of Assassins and general reliance on shields (and when shields are not used, laser weapons seem to be the go-to weapon). And not just shields, but also to avoid collateral damage. Projectiles have tendency to be indiscriminate.
Prisoners, slaves, rebels, etc. probably do use projectile weapons because manufacturing such isn’t a too difficult task. It just doesn’t work in most worlds that have professional garrisons equipped with shields.
Arrakis and the limits it imposes on shields make such weapons practical for the Fremen.

I don’t think projectiles are used even for space warfare/anti-starship weapons in style of the new film. While cool imagery, there’s some fridge logic to it: Personal shields are noted as requiring velocity of 6-9 cm/s to be pierced. If that is universal limit, achieving that in combat seems implausible without advanced computer controlled systems, which are obviously a no-no in Duniverse. If it is not universal limit, the piercing velocity could be even slower. (Consider the task of landing a rocket like Falcon 9, how tricky it is. Piercing a shield in space combat is harder task because everything’s moving, not just the rocket.)
Exception would be if a spaceship shields protect only a part of a ship, and can be overwhelmed by sheer firepower. Monitor type warships are noted to mount heavy armor and shield protection, which seems redundant at a glance.
(Since laser reaction can affect the shooter, they don’t seem to be good options in space combat against shielded opponents.)
No comment on how exactly space warfare can be even conducted with these limits. But then, there’s little reason to do in the first place.

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In my mind space war will be forbidden by the Space Guild. They can transport ships for landing on a planet or atmospheric fights but will not allow fights in Their Domain.
Any trespassers will be alone and stuck on their planet for as long as the Space Guild wishes.

Off-hand, space combat is not forbidden by the Guild but no Guild ship may be endangered.
The very fact there are several types of warships implies space combat does occasionally happen within Duniverse during the Imperium (pre-Imperium, it certainly was a thing: the Battle of Corrin), though at least some are mostly orbit to ground attack ships (such as crushers, that land on top of enemies).
Were space combat completely forbidden, there would be no need for warships. (Seems unlikely one would utilize space ships for combat within atmosphere, physical limits makes this questionable venture.)

I’ve always seen projectile weapons in Dune as something that is mixed in with melee. Slow pellet stunners are mentioned now and then, but beyond the prequel books, ranged warfare is woefully under-described. The roleplaying game mentions both rockets and tanks, and later supplements describe bombardment and warships. Naval battleships are likewise also passively mentioned. Additionally, maula pistols, maula rifles and projectile guns are frequently mentioned in the books, both rpg and not. Their use is still suspect. So In the coming rant, I’ll throw my cents at it.

In terms of the rpg, with armoured warfare being a clear asset, my general assumption has been that guns can’t fire past their own shields, so they drop them to fire on other vehicles. Likewise, aircraft in fighting speed tend to be either support vehicles with bombs or flamethrowers/drop canisters, or otherwise unshielded for liberty of movement. So, past a certain speed, a shield becomes a hindrance to movement, and thus, the vehicle/soldier becomes vulnerable to projectiles. Throw in the fact that remote tow-weapons and servok timed missiles could be a thing to slide past shields.

Commando raids, and civic terror happen as well, so raiders, special forces, or assassins may use pistols for anti-civilian or non-military targets, even a sniper on a roof with a high grade maula rifle or lasgun waiting for a passing dignitary. Shields are encumbering in their own way, and uncomfortable over long term, remember?

Soldiers, in my opinion, tend toward a light ranged weapon, usually a pistol, or carbine, and a main melee weapon, be it sword, axe, or pike. Light to heavily armoured, with corresponding weapons. The shield is kept on when in combat, and off when not. Line infantry tending toward long-term shield use and forming quick moving blocks of troops that engage other troops and screen support troops, sappers, and marksmen that aim for officers, fire off rockets, retrieve the wounded, or man posts. No man with a sword is good enough to take down a tank, so a servok rocket using trooper would likely pop out of the ranks to do so, screened between the enemy swords by continually shielded swordsmen. Other forces may use stunners to make “intermediary troops” with some anti-infantry effectiveness while able to fight in crucial melee.

The maula pistol is something used on retreating troops, support troops like medics that have to drop shields to work, or disembarking infantry that have to drop their shields to get past each other. I also tend to assume that Maula pistol sniping of enemy troops as they close distance, by fall off and lowering power over distance, or just ideal timing for a counter shot with your pistol, means that infantry ranged weapons haven’t fallen totally out of use. Mechanically, I’d just give Maulas a change at high range, or in combat to slide past a shield, whereas stunners have a larger chance to do so.

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I think one could make the argument that the blast prior to the use of the lasgun deactivated the thopters shield. But thats just me trying to make sense of it :wink:
The use of the laser to cut down physical barriers makes a lot of sense to me. Presumably a moderate body armor can stop a maula pistol dart, but almost nothing can stop a lasgun. So heavily investing in armor does not make sense in the world.
Lasguns would be kind of short range in my game, and could be dispersed by smoke etc. Also, a lasgun could have some kind of savety that it won’t shoot if a shield is deteced in the line of fire, since both base of of the same technology - and manipulating that savety is equivalent to a war crime. Since the lasgun is kind of frequently used, and the senctence of missunsing it would be planetary destruction, these things should be save…

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